quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

BMW installs seat heaters on their cars but you have to pay a fee to have them turned on.

Are they still doing that? I thought that they had stopped, after a tsunami of protests.

Since I purchased an older 911 last year, I tried to get an analog one that I could wrench on. I purchased a Porsche specific diagnostic tool for $300.

In subsequent PCA videos I’ve seen, one dealer service writer said he would encourage DIY Porsche owners to avoid cars 2015 or newer. The software subscription costs the dealer $10k per month. I don’t see Indy shops paying that. I recently had a repair done that was a little out of my comfort zone. The Indy shop charged $200/hour whereas the dealer is close to $300/hour.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
This exact situation is why I opted for a factory extended warranty on my Cherokee. If something goes wrong, the dealer will be fixing it for a long, long time.

I hear you loud and clear. But…the warranty only lasts so long. And when it’s buy/sell/trade time, when it’s a 33% increase in MSRP since you last bought, it’s a different game.

The smart vehicle buyer would be gobbling up the few simpler vehicles left on the market if it fits a use case. This has been going on for well over a decade. A % every year. More software, more complexity, more MSRP, more serviceability issues. Chickens are just coming home to roost but the writing has been on the wall for well over a decade. When you buy a vehicle now, you better be evaluating and analyzing long term use, cost, insurance, if you mod it, service it, order parts for it, a lot of things.

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
This exact situation is why I opted for a factory extended warranty on my Cherokee. If something goes wrong, the dealer will be fixing it for a long, long time.

I hear you loud and clear. But…the warranty only lasts so long. And when it’s buy/sell/trade time, when it’s a 33% increase in MSRP since you last bought, it’s a different game.

If he’s got the same MaxCare Unlimited Mileage/Lifetime warranty on his Cherokee as I do on mine, it’s the best purchase either of us have probably ever made. I’ve got 378K on the odometer and pretty much everything has been replaced at least once (including the engine) for a $99 deductible each time. Literally, they’ve spent more on warranty repairs than I did purchasing the vehicle.

But they (FCA, now Stellantis) don’t sell that warranty anymore. And you’re right. I can’t afford to replace it with a vehicle on the same level if they decide to exercise the option to buy out my warranty at any point.

-Rob

Mercedes has been doing this, for the most part, for the past 30 years.

Remember that almost all of this is due to government mandates. EPA emissions requirements drive tons of computer control of engines with all kinds of sensors. Safety regulations drive vehicle stability, rear backup cameras, and all kinds of other stuff. All this requires computers and software. Everything else you buy that uses power is like this now.

The government has failed to mandate that software is a product with standard liability and warranty and not a literary work license under copyright law. I have no doubt this is due to contributions from software companies making 25-30% NET margins.

I disagree with buying hardware like heated seats, that are unlocked with a subscription and will not buy any vehicle that does this. The secondary market will be a nightmare for this. FTC might need to step in there, but I think the market will sort this out. At the minimum there should be a sunset clause such as all features activated after car is 10 years old.

The problem with "right to repair" is the things are damn complex. Off-highway diesel engines have the same complexity as on-highway engines a few years earlier. Off-highway emissions requirements lag on-highway a few years. 25 years ago you could still sell simple mechanical diesels, and the early electronic engines just had electronic fuel injection. Now you have EGT, VGT's, DPF/DOC, DEF, etc.

I doubt someone without a lot of training and the right diagnostic tools would get very far, but the troubleshooting guides available to factory techs are pretty good, so maybe in some cases it would be OK.

The answer is to allow off-highway engines with low duty cycles (Combines and Harvestors are only used a short time each year) to run mechanical diesels or simplified electronics without all the emissions controls. 24/7 equipment working construction or mining can be more emissionized, but again, the total number of these pieces of equipment is way smaller than highway trucks.

Government regulates because it's what they do. They have gone way past the point of diminishing returns and are regulating things that really don't have a significant effect on the climate. At least backup power generators are a few tiers back in emissions regs because they only operate when power is out.

I am considering a Carmax Maxcare warranty for this reason. The vehicle is best repaired by the dealer.

My extended warranty for the Cherokee is for 7 years, bumper to bumper. $100 deductible. My main concern was with the 9 speed (4 more than it needs) transmission and all the electronics. I just turned 10K on the clock and so far, no issues. And I went all the way up the Pesheekee Grade to MT Arvon with it last fall.

I have not read all the posts. But this has also increased the cost to consumers on independent shops on older cars tenfold. It is to the point of not taking your can in for regular maintenance. Average people cannot afford it. Most independent shops are using software that price work done. So whether you are in NY or NV you are going to get screwed at the same level. Terrible.

I'm mixed on this and no side is absolutely correct.

Using Toyota as an example, they paid developers to design software for their cars to meet whatever spec they wanted. They did the homework and spent the resources. It's their intellectual property.

Now, when a state says Toyota has to turn over their software to indie shops, they have lost the exclusiveness of their intellectual property and by opening up the software, proprietary information is no proprietary. In addition, anyone could, in theory, write new code in Toyota's software and thereby diluting the intellectual property.

On the other hand, if an indie show is capable of performing a repair without messing with or stealing the code, they should be able to access the software for a fee and make the repair.

My last two new cars, and the retirement motorcycle all have\had extended factory warrantees. The bike is yet to need anything, but both cars did. The Subaru wasn't that bad, but the Honda Ridgeline just had it's engine replaced. I don't think I'll ever own a modern motor vehicle without the benefit of a warranty. My Honda dealer's labor rate is $200 an hour.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
This exact situation is why I opted for a factory extended warranty on my Cherokee. If something goes wrong, the dealer will be fixing it for a long, long time.

quote:

Using Toyota as an example, they paid developers to design software for their cars to meet whatever spec they wanted. They did the homework and spent the resources. It's their intellectual property.

Their logo on my car is also their intellectual property. However, I paid for it. I own the car and everything attached to it. If they don’t want their software out in the world they should refrain from including it with the care they’re selling.

Sounds familiar. "We created this problem and now we have to charge you a lot of money to protect you from it."

Up until 6 months ago, the vehicles here at Casa de Vthoky were 12 and 22 years old. The older one, obviously, is the one that's less complex and easier to fix. (If I could buy a new one of that exact vehicle, I'd do it this very minute.)

Now, the collection's ages are 12 years, 22 years, and 6 months.
The newest one is intended to be another 20+ year vehicle, but it's way more complex than I really would prefer. Mechanically, it'll be fine. I hope the electronics hold up.

More and more, I think I want to buy a military surplus pickup or SUV, simple (and old-school) diesel preferred, and just keep putting money into [relatively] easier repairs. Or maybe an old air-cooled VW....

In just a few years I've gone from "my friends and I can fix that!" to "Ya gotta have what tool to fix that?!" No bueno.