quote:

Originally posted by Rigby470:
Was Bonhoeffer considered a spy? I think what he did was right.

Sorry for the late reply. I was watching our President on quite a G20 trip.

Bonhoeffer was a German Pastor who heard a voice above the law.

He was both a traitor and spy against his country’s laws.

But, he was justified in acting against his country.

To steal a title, there is a Law Above The Law.

The Nuremburg trials and the law of war recognize that there are laws of humanity that transcend mere national laws.

The title of this thread is: “When is spying against one’s country justified?”

I submit that it is justified when seeking to defend the laws of humanity.

Millions of Jews might agree.

Granted, it’s messy but it is the foundational understanding to Human Rights in the original sense of the term.

Rene Cassin was on to something when he drafted the Universal Declaration Of Human Rights.

But, even without the positive law of human rights, these truths exist to guide moral conduct.

Bonhoeffer followed a different law/voice to his death in a concentration camp.

Subverting one's national interest is a crime, until one is in the right. Our founding fathers were insurrectionists, guerillas, spies, and traitors to oust their government and install a new one. Few of us would view George Washington or any of the other founding fathers as anything but a hero.

Spies and internal surveillance exists at all levels, from the highest levels of the federal government to the local police who monitor their own through internal affairs.

We live in a world of checks and balances, and even the nation when it fails to do it's part is subject to both being checked, and weighed in the balance.

Our founders grounded their justification in higher law.

In the Declaration of Independence, they said they acted in furtherance of the “Laws of Nature and of Nature's God.” They said that those laws “entitled them” to act.

They saw a Law Above The Law as well.

Who can see such laws is a messy proposition.

Philosophically, maybe it's Plato's philosopher-kings but it seems you're correct . . .

The only ones who get away with it are the ones who turn out to be right.

The Seditious Committees of Correspondence during the founding era claimed to see the truth of what was truly going on, justifying their spying and sedition on the certainty of their convictions.

To the victor go the spoils.

Shagadellic Baby!!!!!!

In my reading about the cold war I keep running into the idea that all the high ranking Soviets spying for the west did so because they believed they were helping to keep the balance of power. Also, another train of thought from the CI side was every single mid level Soviet who defected was a KGB/GRU plant. They would provide just enough evidence to be credable, but not enough to be crutial. It was Soviet disinformation at it's best. The exception to this were pilots who defected with aircraft. A MIG on your runway is pretty hard to fake.

The Soviets learned to not trust idological Americans as potential spies. They prefered to deal with good old American greed as a motivation.