Loran or Inertial Navigation Systems would be my guess.
There is something good and motherly about Washington, the grand old benevolent National Asylum for the helpless. - Mark Twain The Gilded Age
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September 18, 2020, 09:42 AM
GaryBF
Recall that Charles Lindbergh had none of that. Pretty amazing.
September 18, 2020, 09:54 AM
TomV
Giant Arrows on the top of mountains ??
Washington County, Utah
September 18, 2020, 10:04 AM
Yanert98
I thought it was IFR.
I Follow Rivers and I Follow Roads
---------------------------------- "If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism.." - Thomas Sowell
September 18, 2020, 10:06 AM
RogueJSK
quote:
Originally posted by TomV: Giant Arrows on the top of mountains ??
quote:
Originally posted by Yanert98: I Follow Rivers and I Follow Roads
Good luck finding rivers, roads, or mountains in the middle of the Pacific Ocean between California and Australia.
September 18, 2020, 10:07 AM
steve495
Interesting. VORs were in use in the 1950s, but their range is only about 200 miles.
Just hunting around I found the VAR systems before VOR has a range of about 100 miles.
The Inertial Nav Systems require a bit more thought.
Evil exists. You can not negotiate with, bribe or placate evil. You're not going to be able to have it sit down with Dr. Phil for an anger management session either.
September 18, 2020, 10:10 AM
kz1000
+
------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Yidn, shreibt un fershreibt"
"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind." -Bomber Harris
September 18, 2020, 10:13 AM
Edmond
kz1000,
they just shot an azimuth and went for it?
_____________
September 18, 2020, 10:23 AM
RogueJSK
quote:
Originally posted by kz1000: [map image]
"Okay, Steve. So according to the Pacific Ocean map, you're going to hang a left at this big wave, then a gradual right at that other big wave, then straight on until you pass the tiny speck of an island that you'll miss if you blink, then..."
September 18, 2020, 10:27 AM
mojojojo
I can’t speak for a 1980’s commercial airliner but in the circa 1970’s A-4 Skyhawks I flew as a flight instructor we used TACAN.
“A tactical air navigation system, commonly referred to by the acronym TACAN, is a navigation system used by military aircraft. It provides the user with bearing and distance (slant-range or hypotenuse) to a ground or ship-borne station. It is a more accurate version of the VOR/DME system that provides bearing and range information for civil aviation.”
The Harrier version I flew had INS and TACAN for navigating.
For large over water navigation away from navigation stations they may have used time/distance/heading and/or celestial navigation but I’m not sure. For my one TransPac we just followed the KC-10 like ducklings after their mother.
Icarus flew too close to the sun, but at least he flew.
September 18, 2020, 10:37 AM
OKCGene
You think it was tough for a 747 to fly as you described in the original post?
You need to read this story, Pan Am Clipper had to fly the wrong way around the world to get home to New York Harbor in the days after Pearl Harbor. They didn't even have proper maps!!!!! And as it's a seaplane, they can't land on land. Fuel was a problem.
The plane was deemed to be a strategic asset to America and we needed it back, not lost to the Japanese.
I bought the book after I read this web story, it's multi pages so be sure to look for the link to the next page at the bottom of each.
I love this story and I don't know why it hasn't been made into a movie or video documentary.
It's astounding that they were able to do this seemingly impossible task, but they did.
I hope you enjoy this story, and think of how it happened.
That doesn't work over the vast expanse of the Pacific. Maybe you'll see an Island every couple of hours.
quote:
Originally posted by Yanert98: I thought it was IFR.
I Follow Rivers and I Follow Roads
September 18, 2020, 11:59 AM
sns3guppy
1980 in the 747 would have been the older style Carousel INS units and of course, all-analog instrumentation.
The 747 did feature a sextant port near the cockpit door, and paper plotting charts. Paper plotting charts are still in use today for oceanic legs.
I flew one of the las 747-100's in service, and in fact parked it on its final flight. By then, it had triple IRS navigation, with triple GPS, DME/DME, etc.
The older Carousel units only held a few waypoints, meaning that the trip couldn't be put in the box; only a few waypoints ahead, and the unit continuously had to have fixes added as the flight progressed, with paper calculation of fuel and time, and all-manual HF position reports, per typical oceanic flying.
INS, or inertial navigation system (IRS: inertial reference system) uses a system or gyroscopes and accelerometers to detect movement. The system is initialized at the departure location with an accurate position, and over the course of the next hours, gradually degrades in accuracy. The INS system doesn't require external input: it doesn't require ground based radio stations, or satellite based navigation. It's self-contained. It does, however, continuously have position error increases as the flight progresses. INS gyros became laser ring gyros with IRS units, and eventually progressed to solid state accelerometers that experience less deterioration in accuracy. With GPS input, the units are continuously updated, so that accuracy remains quite precise over long distances.
The INS units also provide input for braking systems, instrumentation, and other systems operational aspects of the airplane.
September 18, 2020, 01:04 PM
.38supersig
quote:
Originally posted by TomV: Giant Arrows on the top of mountains ??
It worked for the Post Office.
September 18, 2020, 02:05 PM
chuck416
^^^what sns3guppy said^^^ When over water, INS used to be the primary means of Navigation (prior to gps), when once past useful range of line-of-sight land nav. transmitters (VORs). GPS is much more accurate than Loran, or INS ever was. VORs too, for that matter.
September 18, 2020, 03:01 PM
low8option
When did commercial airlines stop using navigators as part of the crew?
Freedom comes from the will of man. In America it is guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment
September 18, 2020, 03:01 PM
AKSuperDually
I took a class in advanced radio navigation back in pilot school (UAA) from one of the original flying tigers freighter pilots (retired FedEX). He taught us how to work that RMI needle, and the principals and application of dead reckoning. I've flown military transport over the water long distance several times...using the mars radio (HF) to relay position reports. We may have more modern methods these days, but the transoceanic system still uses a lot of dead reckoning principles. Even with an inertial navigation system the principles of GIGO still apply. Flying to the Azores once a nav tried showing me how to use the sextant, but I was lost. I wish I had cared more at 19...and soaked up that knowledge. I flew with some really awesome crews over the years, and now that I'm a pilot I wish I had absorbed more and asked more questions from the old guys.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The trouble with our Liberal friends...is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." Ronald Reagan, 1964 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. It doesn't matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon will just take a shit on the board, strut around knocking over all the pieces and act like it won.. and in some cases it will insult you at the same time." DevlDogs55, 2014 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
September 18, 2020, 04:45 PM
bubbatime
quote:
Originally posted by mojojojo: For my one TransPac we just followed the KC-10 like ducklings after their mother.
I sure hope so
I'd stay REAL close too.
______________________________________________________ Often times a very small man can cast a very large shadow