quote:

Originally posted by egregore:

quote:

No more USMC Snipers

quote:

There's still going to be Snipers …

Which is it?

File under "misleading thread titles"

From the text of the OP, second sentence of the article text:

quote:

The Marine Corps is scrapping its scout sniper program and will soon house its snipers under reconnaissance, rather than infantry, battalions.

Headline: The sky is falling!

One sentence later: The sky isn't falling, but there's going to be some clouds in the sky today in slightly different formations than there were yesterday...

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:

quote:

...
After fiscal year 2024, which ends in fall of that year, there won’t be any seats in the Scout Sniper Basic Course, according to the Plans, Policies and Operations email. The Marine Corps will still train snipers through the Reconnaissance Training Center and the Marine Raider Training Center, the message stated.

...

Slight thread drift; I've had a question, for years now, and I'm not completely certain of the answers I've come up with.

What is the difference between reconnaissance ("recon") and scouting ("scout")?

Scout, is referring to the skill-set within the Scout-Sniper occupation that develops surveillance, communication, target acquisition skills and passing that information to higher echelon. Sniper of course is the marksmanship skill-set.

Recon is somewhat a catchall term. When referring to a unit, there's Force Recon or, Force, who reports to the Marine Expeditionary Force Commander, 3-star, they're in-charge of the entire operation: ground forces, air wing and logistics component. They handle both standard Green-side operations (typical SOF skills with a heavy maritime component) and Black-side (direct action, anti-terror, clandestine works, etc). Strategic-level operations.
Recon refers to the Reconnaissance Battalion, this unit reports to the division commander, a 2-star, who in-charge of the entire ground force, they're principally doing Green-side work, as they're providing intelligence for the larger ground element; more tactical level information.

The Reconnaissance Training Center is the school house which oversee's Scout-Sniper training and Reconnaissance Marine training, which includes the pre-screening courses and the Basic Reconnaissance Course.

Title has been changed so it no so "Misleading"


So, according to the article and friends/family that are still in the Corps, Scout Snipers are only going to exist in Reconnaissance and Force Reconnaissance units, as well as MARSOC.

MARSOC; yes, they're Marines, but not in the Marine Corps. They are in SOCOM- think of SOCOM as a separate branch of the Military, it's own command, separate funding.

Reconnaissance/ Force Reconnaissance- not as big as you think those units are.
1st Recon Bn in Pendleton
2nd Recon Bn in LeJeune (insert "water" joke here)
3rd Recon Bn at the lovely confines of beautiful Camp Schawab, Okanawa.

At the most, 24 Snipers in each Bn. So there's 72 for the TO&E (Table of Organization and Equipment) for Reconnaissance Battalions Marine Corps wide. *** Unless things have changed drastically***

Force Reconnaissance COMPANIES- much smaller than a Battalion.
1st Force is Pendelton, 2nd Force is LeJeune, 3rd Force is Mobile, Alabama.

Out of a Company of Force Reconnaissance Marines, let's say 12 are Scout Snipers.
12X3= 36
36 + 72 = 108.
So 108 Scout Snipers in those Recon / Force Recon units.



16 - 20 Scout Snipers (or a Marine about to go to the S/S school) in each Infantry Battalion.

21 active duty Battalions in the Marines.
20 X 21 = 420 Scout Snipers in regular Infantry Battalions throughout the Marines.
^^^^ THIS ^^^ is what the Marine Corps is eliminating.

Knowing the Marine Corps, Uncle Sugar isn't good to just fold those 420 into Recon / Force Recon units, or toss them into MARSOC.

420 is a pretty substantial loss to the combat effectiveness of the Regular Infantry Battalions, wouldn't you say?

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:
420 is a pretty substantial loss to the combat effectiveness of the Regular Infantry Battalions, wouldn't you say?

No, I wouldn't say. Did you read the article you posted?

Because the 18 (not 20) scout-snipers in the scout-sniper platoon in each infantry battalion are being expanded to 26 scouts in the new scout-sniper platoon.

So each battalion is gaining 8 Marines to that platoon.

8 x 21 = +168 additional scouts.

You're trying to portray this as "the infantry battalions are losing 420 Marines" (even there the authorized strength of the current scout-sniper platoons in total is just ~378). Whereas it's actually "the USMC infantry battalions are gaining 168 additional scouts on top of their existing 378 scout-snipers". That's +44% in manpower/firepower.

And they're still going to have access to sniper rifle/DMR capabilities, when needed. They're just going to focus more on scouting than sniping, rather than the other way around. That's a good thing for the USMC infantry battalions, who in modern warfare need better and more modern scouting capabilities. The infantry battalions are getting extra bodies and extra scouting ability, while retaining most of their long range single target engagement capabilities. Win-win.

Besides, many of the current members of these infantry battalion scout-sniper platoons aren't even qualified scout-snipers anyway. The very article you posted pointed that out:

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:
Thanks to shortfalls in the number of snipers, scout sniper platoons have in recent years consisted of lots of marksmen who undergo on-the-job training with help from fully trained scout snipers.

These current "scout-marksmen" are more like what the new scouts will look like.


But then I guess "Marines Corps Adds 168 Scouts" doesn't make for as good of a clickbait headline as "No More Marine Snipers".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,