SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Way to go Justice Gorsuch (Timbs v. Indiana case before the SC re Civil Asset Forfeiture, the 8th Amendment, and more.)
Main Page The Lounge Way to go Justice Gorsuch (Timbs v. Indiana case before the SC re Civil Asset Forfeiture, the 8th Amendment, and more.)Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Oh stewardess, I speak jive.  |
source article There are a few things of interest going on here, some of which extends beyond this specific case before the court - including the issue of using this case to Incorporate the 8th Amendment, as well as indicating the end of certain Civil Asset Forfeiture practices at the State level as well as Federal), and one bit is a nice verbal pimp-slap that Justice Gorsuch gives out to the Indiana Solicitor General which is entertaining all by itself. Just click the article if that interests you, it would be a big wall of text to paste/quote, and the interesting bits are scattered throughout. As someone who, on principle alone, opposes almost every conceivable thing about Civil Asset Forfeiture this is particularly interesting and good news if it curbs this often vile practice. And anything that removes any possible profit motives from law enforcement at all levels is an unarguably fantastic thing. Like Ghostbusters, those streams ought not cross. But all that aside, Gorsuch's exchange with the Indiana Solicitor General is amusing... | ||
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Told cops where to go for over 29 years… |
Thanks for posting. Good read and I agree that the forfeiture laws have been grossly abused. One thing to forfeit obvious gains from illegal activity, wholly another to say because of illegal activity we are going to take everything of value we can lay our hands on. What part of "...Shall not be infringed" don't you understand???  | |||
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Sigforum K9 handler |
"Insert liberty platitude here" Man, I am so glad to see this. Fuck every old person who gets scammed for all of their money by telemarketers overseas. Fuck every victim who gets taken for the "you got warrants" green dot money card scam. Fuck those guys. If they weren't stupid, this wouldn't have happened, RIGHT?????? The scammers got the money, fair and square. The only way these saps get their money back is if LE can identify the accounts where the scammers are moving money though and seize them through civil asset forfeiture. Then LE gets court orders to divide up the money and get it back to the victims. Can't seized it directly for the victim, cause you can't prove it is their exact money. Fuck those guys, right? This is liberty we are talking about!!! (Insert broad brush stroke opinions) | |||
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| Oh stewardess, I speak jive. |
A bit touchy this morning? Stale donut and bad coffee? (you all but asked for that part...) Rather than a butt-hurt snark-fest, kindly offer some insight, given your professional experience, as to the proportion of the types of cases you describe as compared to all cases of Civil Asset Forfeiture, and... share with us how effective it is, as in - how often are such instances successful and how much of their money ever makes it back to the victim? Otherwise it's impossible to judge whether what you refer to is 2% of the cases or 72%, and so on. You know, literally add some useful details, Jones... or would you rather play victim? Insert thin blue line platitude, or some shit. (See how that bullshit works... so cut it the fuck out. Discuss it, or kindly carry your ass.) | |||
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| my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives |
https://www.supremecourt.gov/D...for%20Respondent.pdf See summary of facts on page 2. Mr Timbs is not nearly as innocent as the article may suggest. ***************************** "I don't own the night, I only operate a small franchise" - Author unknown | |||
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Telecom Ronin |
Good article, my wife asked me last night about this case and once I explained she was shocked this was happening in the US. To quote her " that's some Ukrainian bullshit right there" She's a UA import  | |||
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Wait, what? |
But, but, but...it’s unfair to take away the drug dealers I’ll gotten gains, cuz it’s his stuff! I’m sure there are abuses made in the system, but this particular case (or any case where monies or property are directly tied to illegal activity) is not one of them. “Remember to get vaccinated or a vaccinated person might get sick from a virus they got vaccinated against because you’re not vaccinated.” - author unknown | |||
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Objectively Reasonable |
Were you to rewrite the "system": when WOULD it be permissible to take the proceeds/fruits or instrumentalities of crime? What kind of proceeding? Or not at all? | |||
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Step by step walk the thousand mile road |
I've not heard of the Commonwealth of Virginia using civil asset forfeiture to recover money lost to scammers, fraudsters, or just plain old everyday thieves. In fact, when I had a building contractor attempted to take the earnest money but toward the contract I could barely get them off their ass to prosecute the criminal case even though the facts in the case read like the appellate decision for Virginia's law against construction fraud. I was completely on my own trying to recover my money from the fuck who stole it. Moreover I don't believe that our civil asset forfeiture laws would allow the recovery of stolen funds from an account in Pakistan when the criminal activity occurred in Pakistan (your telemarketing scam example). I also like to point out that I've never heard of civil asset forfeiture being used to recover stolen funds for return in their totality to the party who was the victim. At best there is always a "fee" charged. Instead I've always heard of the egregious examples of legalized theft by government entities, usually small local government entities, who are using civil asset forfeiture to fund all manner of government activities. Nice is overrated "It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018 | |||
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I'm Fine |
the seizures I don't like are folks pulled over on the highway - no drugs found - but they have a lot of cash, and it is taken from them by the police. THAT is not right. Don't know about the rest of it, but we shouldn't punish people for carrying large amounts of cash. ------------------ SBrooks | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
Butthurt? Hardly. You guys get the court system you deserve when you base statements of opposing this or that with broad brush strokes. I can't change bad court rulings, why be "butthurt" over them. Hell, maybe its time we should think about further rewarding the criminals with Chili's gift cards? Maybe?? People do not want, need, or pay attention to insight. Over the last couple of weeks, I've popped in on threads and did just that with facts, logic, and reason. NO BS. But, the emotional beasts shake their fists at the god's and scream at thunder just the same. They only care about emotion, and someone, somewhere said that this or that happened. Frankly, most of the stuff looks just like the "No Justice, No Peace" crowd from Ferguson, or any other recent event. No logic, no fact, just all emotion. Hell, one thread made it clear to me that the logic displayed is pretty clear cut evidence that during gun confiscation, I almost think many of the posters would inform on their neighbors for having guns. I didn't post it, but the evidence is there. So, I get my turn to post in the same fashion. It gets attention, obviously. I really do not care if people think it is unbecoming of me, or whatever. I would say the exact same thing in person. Crime, drugs, scams, etc will continue as long as someone is profiting from them. If it is the opinion that civil asset forfeiture is bad, then let's at least be intellectually honest and stop having the police respond to these financial crimes where people get bilked out of $2,000 to $200,0000 if you're not going to give the cops the tools to win. Remove the profit or stop adding to their caseload. When the victim calls in, just have the cops say "Sorry, the criminals bank accounts are more important, and this 'MIGHT' be misused so you are SOL". That's the only way you're going to break the cycle, because there will always be victims. I am no longer interested by uninformed, tired platitudes like "Some animals are created equal" that is posted by people wishing to look smarter. Truth be told, there's likely no money in threads like this. Just room for echo chamber. | |||
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| Step by step walk the thousand mile road |
I would restrict civil asset forfeiture do cases where the individual has been tried and convicted of a directly related crime, and I would limit the civil asset forfeiture to the maximum monetary fine imposed by statute. To use the Tibbs example above, they could take up to $10,000 from something directly related to the criminal activity of selling heroin. I would be hesitant to allow them to take his car because I see that as an indirect activity unless he was parked in a parking space using his car as essentially a storefront. Even then I would limit their ability to take the value of the car up to $10,000 and only after he was convicted of selling heroin from the car like it was a storefront. The mere fact he drove the car while carrying the drugs he was going to sell, is too low a bar to allow the government to take a person's property. Nice is overrated "It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018 | |||
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| Oh stewardess, I speak jive. |
Listen up girls, untwist your panties. Are you literally incapable of not taking things personally when they aren't directed at you? Get your assumptions in check.
Fuck that guy, in general. He's not the point, at all. It's simply the case that made it to the big stage, and the one that may indirectly impact the broader topic. Stay focused... | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
We've got a couple of guys that are good at it. (I am not, I stick to what I know which is working guns because the numbers all day makes my eyes cross) There's no telling how much money they have seized and returned to victims this year. All of the vics were the Green Dot money card type scams where they convince them to send them money via the cards. One of these days, maybe this winter, I'll post a long drawn out explanation of how many of these scams work. Seizing pass through account under civil asset forfeiture is the only way to combat it. | |||
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| Told cops where to go for over 29 years… |
First off, this case is about the gov’t using private attorneys to file the cases and then collect the property, not cash. The private attorneys then sell the property, pay a “tribute” to the gov’t, and keep a share of the bounty for themselves. No “victim” is getting anything back. Guy was convicted of a crime with a possible $10K fine, they confiscated a $40K automobile they never proved was connected to the crime. I am all for taking the gains of the criminal activity, but there needs to be some actual connection to the crime and due process. Presumed innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until you prove yourself innocent. Yup, it sucks that sometimes bad guys get away with shit, but our system is set up to protect individual rights. Straw man alert on your green dot and other various scams example. Fraud/theft by deception and tying it to those people and accounts IS making the connection. What part of "...Shall not be infringed" don't you understand??? | |||
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| Oh stewardess, I speak jive. |
a. today aside, I don't think we've exchanged any cross words of substance in years, Jones, literally fucking years, if that recent. b. I have stated on numerous occasions over the years here that not only do I generally like and enjoy your posts, but I have tons of respect for you in particular and several other members in your profession (but I'll not take any undue bullshit just the same...), and I've similarly conveyed with absolute sincerity on several occasions that I firmly believe you and those like you are the good guys. The more Joneses and Chongos the better... but that doesn't have shit to do with criticisms about the system itself, of which you're a wee cog. c. Whatever your current level of frustration is, it can't have much of anything to do with me, because we've hardly interacted much in the last year or more. So take a step back, dude, and remember that while we may disagree on some things I am not now nor have I ever been your enemy, and while my feelings aren't hurt/etc, you're a bit out of line today, with me, here in this thread and on this topic. Ratchet that shit down a few notches. Or walk away if you must, I guess.
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| Too soon old, too late smart |
Teneha, Texas seems to have gotten a nasty reputation for using the forfeiture strategy. It was reported that they didn’t limit the use to just the evil doers. It’s common knowledge that minorities aren’t inclined to use banks and wind up carrying cash, sometimes lots of it. | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
It is nothing personal. Nothing ever is. (With the exception of people that shoot at me, that is personal. You haven't shot at me recently, have you?  )I don't get "butthurt" over things. I am actually one of these guys that enjoys just about every facet of life. I tell my boy constantly that "Life is Good". Frustrations is a strong word, because I can't change a thing that others believe. Nothing. I learned probably 20 years ago on the job, that I can only do what I can do. I can't control the prosecutors, the courts, or the system. So, I do my thing, and I let the chips fall where they may. Nothing about my job is personal. I'm not going to be one of these dudes that works till I'm 107 and then dies two weeks later. Nor, am I going to be one of these guys that retires, only to come back to work at a cop job 30 days later. Being a detective is something I enjoy. I enjoy it because of the meat of this thread. Trying to make the victims whole again. My job is a game. I try to hone skills at getting better at the game, like any professional athlete does at playing their game. My game is puzzle solving. To say that you or anyone else "frustrate" me is inaccurate. You honestly don't. But, broad brush painting like "POLICING FOR PROFIT" with less than half the facts, especially as page 2 seems to hit that predictable "well, maybe he wasn't so innocent after all" that most of these articles do. This thread isn't a "thin blue line" thread. It is pro or anti victim. People need to choose a side, then stand with that side. The reason why this thread is contentious is that it takes the profit out of crime. I don't expect to change a single person's mind. You can't stop the addicts. You can't stop people from falling for stupid shit over the phone. But, you can take the money out of it. Both sides of the system get misused or manhandled at times. Each is unacceptable. Both, should be eliminated. But, human nature being what it is, you'll never eliminate it entirely from either side. Enjoy. | |||
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| Told cops where to go for over 29 years… |
And Jerry - good on your guys for what they are doing it sounds like the PROPER application of the process and what the good intent for it is. I hope you will admit though that some agencies abuse it and use it to their gain over any interest in effective crime fighting. Just like the rare cop who is dirty or crosses the line, those agencies and those cases sully the good work done by the majority. It would be wrong to ignore those abuses because those who don’t abuse do good things with the tool they have available. What part of "...Shall not be infringed" don't you understand??? | |||
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| Oh stewardess, I speak jive. |
I don't have some prepared answer, but I'll wing it to facilitate the discussion. First, let's talk about theft. Fuck thieves. Fuck em in every orifice. I defy anyone here to cite some example of me liking, supporting, or in any way giving a damn about thieves or suggesting leniency. So if there are useful cases involving recovery of stolen property then that, at least at this altitude of specificity, sounds perfectly reasonable. How can I/we help? Y'all wanna round up a posse to get the crooks scamming our grandparents, sign me up. What I don't support, and vehemently loathe, is how some aspects have been turned into a business unto itself, like the example cited in the source article, law firms suing, seizures that are vastly disproportionate to the crime/fine and so on. Did you guys even read the article? Lastly, I know I wasn't around for several months this year, but I have never been shy about or inconsistent in my general opinions here, and while I lean little-L libertarian I've never advocated ending entire agencies, or dreamt of some lawless society, or any similarly kooky bullshit. Sovereign Citizen sorts can get fucked, as far as I'm concerned. I despise bullshit, double standards, abuses of power, bloated bureaucracies. And things of that sort. | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Way to go Justice Gorsuch (Timbs v. Indiana case before the SC re Civil Asset Forfeiture, the 8th Amendment, and more.)
Main Page The Lounge Way to go Justice Gorsuch (Timbs v. Indiana case before the SC re Civil Asset Forfeiture, the 8th Amendment, and more.)© SIGforum 2024