quote:

Originally posted by Dakor:
The former Eastern Bloc nations of the EU are aligned against Communism as their leaders previously lived under Soviet rule and educated first-hand in that evil political scheme. The cancellation of Romania's recent election results was bullshit and now the leftists are attempting to nullify Germany's AfD (a right-of-center populist conservative party) that is leading in the polls.

Giorgia Meloni (a Conservative) was elected as PM of Italy in Oct 2022 and from what I understand that nation is turning around its socialist policies.

If only it was that simple.
Germany's issue with the AfD is its most fervent & vocal members are very wishful to go back to East German times, there's little love, admiration or, respect for the West. While nationalism and pride in the state appeals to most conservatives globally; what's underneath is a lot their economic policies resemble the failed practices of the GDR, and social policies which are anti-semitism and outright bigoted. There's a lot of resentment in the former East Germany, many looking Eastward for some salvation or, inspiration but not understanding that Moscow has its own issues that are dragging it down.

Italy's shift-rightward with Meloni is more organic, a response to illegal immigration, the heavy-handedness of EU economic policies and modern progressivism.

Unfortunately, as we've seen here in the US, 'main-stream' news and press in Europe is dominated by Left and Far-Left progressives who are disconnected from the common person, and derisive of any conservative or, even moderate points of view that don't conform to their common narrative; if they're not with us then they're Far-Right or extremists. Times are changing in Europe, Poland, Italy and parts of Spain are finally figuring it out, Sweden and Denmark might be getting with the program, the UK looked to be on the right track unfortunately their ham-fisted handling of Brexit and the incompetence of the Conservatives left the door wide open for Labor to show they're just as incompetent and out of touch as their opponents.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
If only it was that simple.
Germany's issue with the AfD is its most fervent & vocal members are very wishful to go back to East German times, there's little love, admiration or, respect for the West. While nationalism and pride in the state appeals to most conservatives globally; what's underneath is a lot their economic policies resemble the failed practices of the GDR, and social policies which are anti-semitism and outright bigoted.

And therein lies the explanation for Vance' confused appearance. American right-wingers have of course long stated that "the National Socialists were socialists, too", but their conclusion has been "thus, Nazis were left-wingers". As a result, they don't recognize that European right-wing parties are also heavily socialist, because they don't look further than that label; or at best at some pro-market planks from party platforms which are pretty meaningless, because parties like the AfD understand themselves as revolutionary movements of action, not program parties (BTW, American left-wingers make the same mistake of "right-wingers can't be socialists", too).

Which is why ironically, the US Right has been importing European socialist politics hand over fist ever since Steve Bannon designed Donald Trump's first campaign in 2016 on those models. Resonating with a working-class electorate that was increasingly suffering from the classic breeding ground of unequal wealth distribution, but had been told that any measures to counter that would be ... socialism. So as someone who grew up in divided Germany, lived through re-unification and later studied politics and history with a natural focus on things close to him, I'm totally amused whenever I look at the current Trump Presidency thread and see a socialist revolution unfolding in the US of all places. Cheered by people who profess to hate state socialism no less, because they think it's about universal healthcare and stuff.

What it is about at its most basic though is the belief that a natural state of conflict exists between The People and an economically, socially or ethnically defined elite which keep them down through The System; but that The System can be overcome and an assumed Will of The People implemented through The Party or its leadership, if only all effective opposition is eliminated. Which gives a perfect explanation for Vance' Munich performance: he was there representing a socialist revolution government, which like all such governments wants to export the revolution and support like-minded local comrades.

That he doesn't know that either his government or the AfD are socialists doesn't matter; see above under the confusion of European political labels by Americans. After all, he started off his support for them a couple weeks ago by stating on X that they were "strongest where resistance against the Nazis had been greatest". Which makes him a late victim of Communist East German propaganda, 40 years later.

Your view on Socialism is very different from any definition or example I have read or seen.

What bansheeone just wrote is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever read on the internet.

He’s another one for the ignore list.

The simple answer is that Merkel destroyed what at one time in the 80s and 90s was the strongest military and industrial base in Europe. She systematically dismantled their nuke power grid which provided more than 2/3 of their electrical power when I lived there from 1987-1990. As VDH has pointed out, Merkel destroyed her country faster than any meltdown in recent history. They are now totally depended on LNG and Gas from Norway and their industrial base is a shell of its former self. The military has completely collapsed and their withdrawal from their role as a leading powerhouse in central Europe left the power vacuum that Putin thought he could exploit.

This is what happens when leftists NWO progressives who hate free speech and the free market take over a country. The Germans may eventually recover, but this has cost them tremendously.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
What bansheeone just wrote is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever read on the internet.

He’s another one for the ignore list.

BansheeOne must want more of the same that has driven the country into the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:
Your view on Socialism is very different from any definition or example I have read or seen.

To say the least.

But hey, what do I know, I'm just merely an American right-winger.

quote:

But hey, what do I know, I'm just merely an American right-winger.

So, you're a socialist. As am I. LMAO.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
What bansheeone just wrote is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever read on the internet.

He’s another one for the ignore list.

You also have to remember that he lives in Germany and sees all of this and doesn’t just get snippets and clips of news like we do about the whole situation.

But I do agree that Germany has essentially used the United States for years in order to not have to spend on their own defense and now that’s all coming to an end.

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne:
nonsense, nonsense, nonsense, blah, blah, blah

Socialism

[soh-shuh-liz-uhm]

noun
1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, capital, land, etc., by the community as a whole, usually through a centralized government.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.


BansheeOne, please explain to us Americans where anyone on the right in the USA is pushing for the government to be our daddy? Collectivism is a LEFTIST ideal, not a conservative one.

By reducing the power and cost of government, by removing barriers to business, by exposing actual criminal fraud by the entrenched ruling political class, we are bringing in socialism?

I guess that I, too, am one of those right wing socialists who welcomes the day the government becomes so small it is insignificant to my life.

quote:

the US Right has been importing European socialist politics hand over fist ever since Steve Bannon designed Donald Trump's first campaign

You're gonna have to elaborate yourself on this one.
I kept reading thinking you'd land on a long winded explanation that resembled the horseshoe theory on Vance's speech and his perspective. Instead what you wrote that he (Vance) has no idea what he's talking about, and 'right-wing' conservative, American's are confused as to what their politics & positions are.

You do understand which American party has members advocating for government ownership of industry and property; private property being abolished and all efforts & labors being contributed to the collective. Information and services controlled by the State...these are all defined pillars of a Socialist economy.

Here's right wing socialist VDH talking about the EU and JD Vance's speech.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
You're gonna have to elaborate yourself on this one.
I kept reading thinking you'd land on a long winded explanation that resembled the horseshoe theory on Vance's speech and his perspective. Instead what you wrote that he (Vance) has no idea what he's talking about, and 'right-wing' conservative, American's are confused as to what their politics & positions are.

You do understand which American party has members advocating for government ownership of industry and property; private property being abolished and all efforts & labors being contributed to the collective. Information and services controlled by the State...these are all defined pillars of a Socialist economy.

I figured that would need additional explanation.

Some time after reunification I got hold of an East German schoolbook for their version of civic education. It was deriding the system of checks and balances in West Germany, particularly the independent judiciary in the form of the Constitutional Court, as infringing upon the Will of the People which in the DDR was implemented through the socialist state party. For the last 15 years or so, I've always been amused hearing Western right-wingers using this exact complaint about courts infringing upon the Will of the People by ruling against their governments, which were after all chosen by said people; most recently in Israel. Which made me think "you guys know that's a pretty socialist argument, right?"

Obviously that's not all that defines socialism, and it's probably not even very scholarly. Yet if you subscribe to the idea that the Nazis were socialists, too, it's pretty much the only thing that ties it all together. Because what few thoughts on socialism we have in Nazi ideology - mainly from their chief ideologist Alfred Rosenberg's commentary on their 25-point-platform - vaguely describes it as a "sense of community", rejects both capitalism and Marxism as two pincers of the same Jewish attack on society, and calls for "race struggle, not class struggle" (see above under natural state of conflict between The People and an elite keeping them down). In practice, they never infringed upon capitalist principles any more than other countries going to a wartime economy. Even the national Reichswerke Hermann Göring which took over the industries in occupied countries (but scrupulously paid license fees) were supposed to become a stock company after the war.

Now against the background of "division of powers infringes upon the Will of The People", imagine my Haley Joel Osment face seeing posters on the Trump Presidency thread demanding that independently elected senators auto-confirm Trump's cabinet picks "because We The People voted for him", that Trump should "get rid" of Democratic state governors, and that "The People should make an example" of judges ruling against his executive orders; the last is outright Bolshevism, actually.

To be sure, I see no cohesive ideology so far. Least of all from Trump himself, though the first "moment of socialism" I got from him was all the way back in his first campaign in 2016 when he clapped back at the audience at rallies like a traditional communist leader. As all successful populists, he presents pretty much a white canvas people project their wishes on. However, there are recognizable bits and pieces of socialist characteristics floating around his base. Like the anti-capitalist streak pitting rich internationalist elites against the working class (with some anti-semitic undertones on the fringes, manifesting heavily in fora like Gab and the comments on ZeroHedge), also opposing the principles of free market and free trade.

Plus the claims to "peace" while at the same time supporting territorial expansionism; the accommodation of public welfare as long as it benefits the "right" people; the habitual search for agents of the class/race/whatever enemy in any detrimental event (every mass shooter is a Democrat, crypto-Muslim or trans terrorist; every transport accident is the fault of some DEI hire; every opposing political or legal voice is "Soros-linked"; etc.); the political purges; and the cult of personality.

Now, Vance ... this guy visits Dachau and tells the press "never again", then the next day endorses the AfD. This is a party the government of Israel will absolutely not interact with, even one as closely aligned with the Trump admin as Netanyahu's. Because their (now honorary) chairman Alexander Gauland once famously called Nazi rule a mere "birdshit" in German history. Because their real strong man, Thuringia state chapter head Björn Höcke, says he has "problems" with the term of "Judeo-Christian civilization", has derided the national Holocaust memorial as a "monument of shame" and demanded a "180-degree turn in German memory culture" (and BTW, AfD chancellor candidate Alice Weidel just bent the knee to him, apologizing for having once tried to throw him out of the party, calling him a "freedom thinker" and suggesting he could be a minister under her).

They did manage to eject a Baden-Württemberg state assemblyman who had written a multi-volume tome about Muslims, Jews and socialists as the enemies of Western society - four years later, the AfD state assembly group having split over the issue, and after electing him a delegate to party conventions where he kept filing anti-semitic, anti-Israeli and anti-American motions. They made a guy top candidate for the last EU elections who told an Italian newspaper that he'd never broadbrush all SS members as criminals, at which point Marine le Pen had the AfD expelled from their common caucus in the European parliament. Their national leadership took five days after the 7 October 2023 Hamas attack on Israel to issue a statement mourning "all war dead" and calling for a diplomatic resolution, for the same reason that Muslim associations made similar milquetoast statements: they have to mind the anti-zionists and straight anti-semites among their clientele.

That Vance then lectured Europeans about censorship, two days after the White House had barred the AP from future press conferences for not toeing the government line about renaming the Gulf of Mexico, was really just a "birdshit" in comparison. Personally, I stopped following his speech when he brought up the current fashionable canard that former EU commissioner Thierry Breton allegedly said that "we" could "anull the German elections like in Romania" (in fact Breton talked about investigating social media manipulations under the European Digital Services Act, which was entirely separate from the national process in Romania, and said no such thing).

I cannot even fault him as a person; Americans will be first to tell you their education system is broken, and obviously they're not alone with that problem. For every American who thinks Europe is a socialist dictatorship overrun by murderous immigrants committing daily terror attacks, there's a European who thinks that blood is running in American streets due to the "gun epidemic", and doesn't understand why they don't simply ban firearms despite daily mass shootings. The problem is when people who may be intelligent and capable but with insular knowledge, and have this cheap Hollywood/TV production image that the rest of the world is like a degraded version of the US with funny accents, become members of an ideology-driven government where noone tells them otherwise. They may very well create socialism by accident because, as an outspoken Brit on another board once said, "they wouldn't know the real thing if it bit them on the arse".

The AP isn't an actual news gathering agency and it's kind of preposterous to use the AP ban as an example of press censorship. I do agree it's way too late to be lecturing Europeans on censorship. It's inevitable that Europe will end up with hurt feelings... I guess this was always going to happen.

A) Attacking the judges is usually based on them not being judges.

Judges are not elected in the U.S. It’s quite clear how they are to resolve conflict between laws.

Most of the issues come when they try to act like little dictators. Roe v Wade was a terrible piece of legal reasoning, which made every lawyer very uncomfortable.

The “right to marriage” case is equally egregious and without basis.

The judges should be getting attacked, because they are not refusing themselves, when they have family members who benefit from USAID money/because they are attacking the rule of the governed.

The POTUS is the head of the executive branch. If he is not allowed to review policies/employees, then NO elected official is.

quote:

Originally posted by bdylan:
The AP isn't an actual news gathering agency and it's kind of preposterous to use the AP ban as an example of press censorship.

For a "news agency" to have a place in the WH press corp is a privilege, not a right. In case certain members are unaware, the well-known mainstream media outlets in the U.S. have outright lied, have colluded with the opposing party against Trump, have blatantly ignored all journalistic ethics, and AP is one of them. To compare this to private citizens being arrested for saying things that govt determines to be lies, to post these or repost them on the internet, to compare is ludicrous, just pure bullshit. Nobody is arresting AP for printing the shit they do print at times, the past lies they have passed on. In this great country, they are still allowed to publish absolute trash.

What BansheeOne fails to mention is that:

The AP can still report and isn't facing jail over it's speech.
Activist judges with a conflict of interest (especially financial ones) should be disagreed with.
Race struggle and identity politics are leftist tenets.
Political purges are always gonna happen, regardless of which side is in control of the Whitehouse.

But I feel his biggest omission is the albatross that hangs on the neck of every German since 1945. Feeling any kind of national pride is deemed a no-no and that goes as far as even having a conversation with someone that expresses the least bit of patriotism, which is why all of Germany seems hung up on the AfD. To them, everyone that says they are tired of importing 3rd world shit heels is a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer. Shame and guilt keep the German populace from saying what needs said out loud.

I think Vance is right about many of the things he said in that speech. Especially about German immigration policy.

But is it any of our business?

And we all know that if some German politician came and told us how to run our business, Americans in general, and members of this forum in particular, would tell him exactly what he could do with that advice and criticism.

quote:

Originally posted by FiveFiveSixFan:
I watched that speech and thought that it was wide-reaching and well-written. When he cited examples involving either Europe or individual countries in Europe, he followed up with examples from the United States thereby diminishing any potential accusations of hypocrisy.

The audience seemed quite attentive and the overall reception seemed to go from somewhat skeptical to fairly positive as the delivery was made in a matter-of-fact way rather than as a scold.

Overall, I found it to be a good speech which was well-delivered.

I agree with FiveFiveSixFan.

It is very interesting that JD Vance brought up the recent Romanian election and the nullification of the result by European courts. Vance shot an arrow directly into the heart of the hypocrisy of ‘democracy’ as defined by the European control agents (essentially EU intel). Within the remarks, Vance alludes to missing elections in Ukraine and other various anti-democratic activities that have been recently visible in the EU.

“There is no security if you are afraid of the voices of your own people,” Vance said.
Continuing, “if you are running in fear of your own voters, there is nothing the American people can do to assist you.”

For those who didn't see it, Here's the speech:

Vice President JD Vance Delivers Remarks at the Munich Security Conference