OK, here you go. I have a 1997 Toyata Corolla, with the 1.6L, it has developed a water pump leak. I have gotten estimetes of $550.00 to $850.00 dollars. This wasn't dealer estimetes, as the closest one is 30 miles away. The lower estimate is from a service center that is OK, not the best revews, but not bad. A guy I work with recommend them to me.

The higher estimate is from a service center that is known to be a very good and rentable place. Both estimates seem high. Are they in the ball park?

Here's the deal, the car is worth $2400.00 at the top end. Trade in value is something like $950.00. in the four months that I have owned it I have had to sink $250.00 into it. I got it because I knew both of the previous owners and it's low mileage of just under 150,000 miles.

The problem is, it looks like it is turning into a money pit that my Crown Vic is.

I'm now debating whether to move up my new car purchase some. Cut the losses as it were.

The water pump is like $40.00, but as it looks, I have to take the motor mount off the passengers side and lift that side of the motor up. I do not have a way to do this. So, a service center is the way.

My question is, is that a reasonable price range? $550 to $850.00 dollars?

Thank you for your time.


ARman

On the surface, that seems kind of high, unless a timing belt is included with it. However, this engine's (4AF-E) water pump is not driven by the timing belt. IIRC, some of the bolts for it are under the belt cover. Let me see what I can find out later today. Keep in mind, too, that you can have good, cheap or fast, but only two out of three, as well as varying labor rates in different parts of the country.

It's not unusual for a 20 year old car to require some repairs.

I had a 1995 model, the same generation (1993-97), with the 1.8 engine and four-speed auto. Best car I ever had, the only repairs (as opposed to maintenance) in 210,000 miles being a starter and a drive axle. Never leaked any fluids, never burned oil.

NAPA auto repair estimator by zip code

http://www.napaautocare.com/estimator.aspx

What type of driving do you do with this vehicle?

I'd almost be inclined to torture test it and see how long it will go with no repair.

To your point, repairs exceeding 50% of a 20 year old vehicles value get pretty hard to justify but that's a cost / benefit analysis you have to think through...

What is the condition of the vehicle otherwise?

----------------------------

Well, as for the NAPA estimate thingy. It was fairly close to what I have been given.

So. I'm looking at spending somewhere between $500.00 and $890.00 on a 20 year old car, that in the last month out of owing it for 6 mouths already sunk $215.00 into repairs.

The Crown Vic is 19 years old and it cost me about on average $150.00 a month over regular things like gas to keep it on the road. It's just shy of 300,000 miles.

I picked up the Toyota corolla super cheap, my niece was driving it until she got the new Focus. The dealership wasn't going to give her more than $900.00 in trade in value for it. I figured that it had been a good reliable car for her, fairly low mileage so I got it.

The Toyota corolla it in fairly good shape. It has right at 150,000 miles on it. The interior is almost perfect, except for the headliner. It's been hit on the driver's side door, low speed and only the door and front fender was damage.

The type of driving that I do is back and forth commuting, to work down twisty, hilly country highways. Depending where my work location is anywhere from 9 miles to 20 miles one way.

I need a reliable car, something that I can trust, as my job is to be there when the assigned driver can't.

I had planned on buying a new 2018 Subaru WRX premium at the start of the new year, or early spring.

Now it looks like I'm going to have to move it up some. I'm not going to sink that kind of money into a 20 year old car that will be more than trade in value, half of the total value at best of the car.

I thought it was alittle high in the repair estimate, and after looking at NAPA, it's close. So, no repairs. I'm just going to keep driving it as is and hope that I can get 3 or 4 mouths more out of it. Keep toppings off the Radator.


ARman

FWIW, I came up with $411. New water pump, 3.4 hours labor @ $75 an hour, coolant and 9.5% sales tax. No other parts like accessory or timing belts. Maybe the $500 isn't that far off.

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:
FWIW, I came up with $411. New water pump, 3.4 hours labor @ $75 an hour, coolant and 9.5% sales tax. No other parts like accessory or timing belts. Maybe the $500 isn't that far off.

That's what I was thinking, and it would be more than a bit silly not to replace the T-belt and serpentine belt while in there. They have to come off anyway.

Being a 1997 Toyota the engine likely has a timing belt that is scheduled to be replaced every 90k miles. You are also supposed to replace the water pump at 90k miles for this very reason. Eventually they do sometimes start to leak, even on the most reliable cars you can buy (Toyota).

So either:
1. The timing belt and water pump weren't replaced at 90k
2. The timing belt was replaced but whomever had it done decided to save a few dollars and didn't replace the water pump while in there
3. The timing belt and water pump were both replaced at 90k, and whomever did the work did not properly prep the gasket surfaces, causing it to leak prematurely.

Since you know the previous owners find out which of the above scenarios is true. If the timing belt was never replaced then you need to do that with the water pump right away. A broken timing belt on an interference engine (which yours may or may not be) is a big $$$ repair. If it's #3, then maybe you can take it back to whomever did the work and they will help you out on the replacement.

A leaking water pump is not to me an indication that the car will be a money pit. Maybe it just wasn't maintained properly by the previous owner and it's the original timing belt and water pump with 150k miles on it.

I'd sink the $500-some-change into it and keep driving. Who cares what it's worth? The question is will $500 make it a reliable enough car to get at least $500 worth of driving out of it... And the answer is likely yes.

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:
On the surface, that seems kind of high,

book time on the labor is 3.4 hours, and the water pumps look to range from $20 to $40

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
I'd sink the $500-some-change into it and keep driving. Who cares what it's worth? The question is will $500 make it a reliable enough car to get at least $500 worth of driving out of it... And the answer is likely yes.

Absolutely agree.

It's paid for.

You'll have reliable transportation for a pittance and if nothing else, it buys you time to save up more cash for another vehicle as well as time for bargain hunt for a new or newer one, and you'll save insurance costs for the time being to allow more cash to build up.

Best wishes to you.

Well, so far it hasn't proven what I call reliable. Dropping $200.00+ bucks so far into it in 6 mouths.

Now needing this. I'm not doing what I have done and still doing with the Crown Vic., with dropping $100.00+ bucks into it every month and always working on it.

So, doing that with two cars now? Forget about it. Ain't gonna happen. With that cost, I'm at around half of a car payment, and at least it would have a warranty which makes it their problem.

I'm tired of working on the damn car(s). Worried that it won't get me to work or back home. Neither one of them are fun to drive, and the Toyota corolla only gets 30 MPG which is only 7 MPG better than the Crown Vic., hell the Subi gets like 27 MPG and it's at least fun to drive.

To me. $500.00 would be the top of repair, and even then I would have to be 99.99% sure nothing else way going to happen with it. And I, or anyone else can't.

The water pump and timing belt was done somewhere around 80,000 miles. My niece said that it was done but I can't find the paperwork, and she's not sure who done the work.

I was hoping to drive it a year, save up a big down payment and somewhere between January and May buy the Subaru WRX. Now, I'm going to shoot for Thanksgiving, Christmas time. I'll just cut back on spending and double the money going into savings.

I'm just going to drive it as is, until it completely stops working, just top it off and forge ahead. The money to fix it will go to the new car down payment.

I just don't like it enough to spend upward to half it's value on it.


ARman

As I look at it, the Toyota corolla, Crown Vic. not counting gas and oil change and insurance (the cost of driving any car) has cost me so far $2,200+/- bucks the last 5 mouths.

Hell the Toyota has taken away $1100.00+/- from what I have been saving for the new car.

I have done ran the numbers, insurance (full coverage) on new car is like $60.00 more then just liability on the two I already have.

I hate to have a car payment, but I rather be spending my money on a new car than on two 20 year old cars and not knowing if they will get me there and back.

I have driven the Crown Vic for 9 years. It has never been reliable transportation. I have always had to work on it at least once a month.

I'm tired of that. I don't want to worry about if it will crap out on me.

I have looked at the pros and cons of driving the old clunkers.

Pros

They are paid for.
With the Crown Vic., I can do most all of the work.

Cons
They are not reliable.
Not fun to drive.
I pay almost the same in insurance as I would a new car.
Though the gas mileage isn't bad nether one gets seller MPG.
When they break, and the Crown Vic., does ever mouth I have to get it home, then do the work and before the Toyota hope that I can get it back on the road before the next day, so I can get to work. As I live in the sticks, getting a ride to work is almost impossible.

So. I just don't see putting anymore money into ether one of them. I don't really like them, they don't offer anything. Nether one is fun to drive. Not particularly good in fowl weather. Not the best in MPG, and so far nether have been reliable.

I tend to keep vehicles, even ones I don't like for a long time. So I'll just limp them along and put the money toward a new car down payment.


ARman

I understand your frustration, but the timing belt and water pump job is a normal maintenance item. If it was done at 80k miles you would need to do the job again at 170k miles anyway if you want to keep the car well maintained. Basically, it was going to cost you sooner or later. Are you mechanically inclined? It's something that you can do yourself with help from online forums and some patience. Then you are only spending money on the parts.

If it's not a bad leak I don't see any reason why you couldn't keep driving the car for another year or so, and then it's the same $500 timing belt/water pump you would have had to pay for in that timeframe anyway as a normal maintenance item.

It's possible that the cheapest water pump available was used the first time, meaning it's not even a Toyota part that is leaking earlier than it should. If you don't have service records and have no idea who did the work then maybe it was just a lazy tech who didn't properly clean the gasket surfaces that is causing your current leak. You have no way of knowing.

What else failed that required $200? Was it another maintenance item on a 20-year old car or something that actual broke from poor reliability?

What's your location? If you are anywhere near central Ohio and need somebody to look over the car for any other major problems I'd be glad to look at it. I used to work as a mechanic and know Toyota's pretty well. If the car is solid other than this water pump leak then spending the $500 makes sense. If it has a bunch of other issues then I agree that you should drive it as-is until it dies, cut your losses, and move on.

It is a 20 year old car. Water pumps don't last forever.

And replacing one costs about the same whether the car is 2 or 20 years old. The price you were quoted doesn't seem out of line, but maybe by shopping around you can get it done cheaper.

A car that old will break. The decision you actually have to make is if keeping the hooptie is worth the repairs you have to make on a semi-regular basis. Or, is a newer car a better choice now?

quote:

1997 Toyata Coroll

From what I've found changing the pump is a pretty intensive job, a lot of work just to get to the pump, so you have to have patience and this video explains why it's $500...




Link to original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoL4svsOt7c

quote:

Originally posted by Brett B:
I understand your frustration, but the timing belt and water pump job is a normal maintenance item. If it was done at 80k miles you would need to do the job again at 170k miles anyway if you want to keep the car well maintained. Basically, it was going to cost you sooner or later. Are you mechanically inclined? It's something that you can do yourself with help from online forums and some patience. Then you are only spending money on the parts.

If it's not a bad leak I don't see any reason why you couldn't keep driving the car for another year or so, and then it's the same $500 timing belt/water pump you would have had to pay for in that timeframe anyway as a normal maintenance item.

It's possible that the cheapest water pump available was used the first time, meaning it's not even a Toyota part that is leaking earlier than it should. If you don't have service records and have no idea who did the work then maybe it was just a lazy tech who didn't properly clean the gasket surfaces that is causing your current leak. You have no way of knowing.

What else failed that required $200? Was it another maintenance item on a 20-year old car or something that actual broke from poor reliability?

What's your location? If you are anywhere near central Ohio and need somebody to look over the car for any other major problems I'd be glad to look at it. I used to work as a mechanic and know Toyota's pretty well. If the car is solid other than this water pump leak then spending the $500 makes sense. If it has a bunch of other issues then I agree that you should drive it as-is until it dies, cut your losses, and move on.

What broke was the Radator exploded. The top tank blew, I thought that someone threw a bomb at me as I turning into a parking lot.

I had to order the radiator, it was to take 5 to 7 days. The wrong one showed up after the 7 day wait, right sealed box, wrong product inside. Another week (7 days) I get my radiator. They give me the wrong one, after getting home and finding out I drive back to town and I get the right one.

I'm doing this in my trusty (not! Ford Crown Vic.) It breaks down, so $20.00 for belt, replaced two years before when the idler pulley locked up with no noise or other indication of something wrong.

Yeah, unfortunately I am mechanically inclined. I unfortunately have to always be working on the Crown Vic., now it looks like a Toyota Corolla also.

I have looked at YouTube and it looks like you can do it on a lift, from underneath but I don't have a lift. On jackstands, in the grass/gravel driveway in front of the garage (can't get it inside, my sister's junk is in there). Or undo motor mount and tilt the engine, which I have no way of doing.

The plan was to drive it for a year or year and a half, save money for down payment. Sell car off for cheap to co workers high school kid.

That's before it turned out not to be reliable. I might give it to them, but would never take money for it.

I thought that with the water pump having been done, that I would have a year of reliable transportation. A gamble that I lost. I would have been $2,200+/- closer to my goal for down payment.

I'm just going to drive it until it shits it's self completely or I meet my goal for down payment and give it away. Because I rather give it to my co workers kid with full disclosure then have the dealership just give me $900.00 for it.

I just thought that the estimates given to me were high, but I see that they are in line with the going rate. It's just more than I'm willing to pay.

It would be different if I liked the car, I don't. It's loud, lost of road noise, engine sounds like a swarm of pissed off bumblebees, not very powerful. It's 100 HP, of boarding. It's small and uncomfortable. I just can't bring myself to spending another penny on another car that I do not like.

The Toyota corolla was supposed to serve as a reliable budget friendly car for a year, year and a half. It has failed.

I would fix it. If I knew that I would not have to spend another penny on it. But I or anyone else can't guarantee me that. So no more pissing money away on old clunkers that I do not like, and I have have to work on. I rather have a car payment. At least I would have a warranty.

ARman

Former Toyota service writer, and long time Toyota wrench turner here. Please, if you change your mind do yourself a favor, and do not go after-market on the pump. I have seen even new in the box pumps, say GMB, fail after just a few months... And on really PITA jobs like 90's 5S-FE engines (Camry).

Not that other pumps can't work great, and even OEM pumps can go bad faster than they should (2AZ-FE engines), just the same if I'm doing a WP on a Toyota, the pump will be OEM Aisin. In the same vein spark plugs will be Denso/NGK, same for O2 sensors, sensors = Denso, Alt/starter = Denso, etc. Good luck with your Corolla if you keep her.