Bail bondsman shoots, kills fleeing client. Someone tell me how this is justifiable

March 27, 2018, 12:08 PM

Self defense. Shot in the back. Mmmm K.

March 27, 2018, 12:12 PM

RogueJSK

quote:
Originally posted by darthfuster:
Self defense. Shot in the back. Mmmm K.

It's possible for someone to be shot in the back in self defense, or especially defense of another. Doesn't automatically disqualify it.

But this case doesn't seem to fit.

March 27, 2018, 12:14 PM

GWbiker

IMO...charge against her should have been second degree murder or manslaughter.

She skated free.

March 27, 2018, 12:23 PM

Southflorida-law

NHI defense. No human involvement. Bet that jury felt that, (1) he's was a felon, fuck him, (2) they would have shot him in the back climbing out the window of their house if had burglarized them. (3) he aint never going to break into someone's home again.

Add to that, he's a big dude, she's a woman. Jury probably wondered why the state even filed against her.

March 27, 2018, 12:23 PM

rusbro

quote:
Originally posted by David W:
Looks like murder to me as well. So you withhold evidence just to let it see the light of day after the trial? I don't think we are dealing with the smartest people here.

Yep. I mean, if you're gonna withhold obviously extremely incriminating evidence, seems to me priority numero uno would be to make certain it was completely destroyed.

March 27, 2018, 12:29 PM

parabellum

quote:
Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
NHI defense. No human involvement. Bet that jury felt that, (1) he's was a felon, fuck him, (2) they would have shot him in the back climbing out the window of their house if had burglarized them. (3) he aint never going to break into someone's home again.

Add to that, he's a big dude, she's a woman. Jury probably wondered why the state even filed against her.

And you're a lawyer? I hope you don't deal wth criminal defense. Really, I don't.

March 27, 2018, 12:34 PM

BamaJeepster

(According to the internet) Oklahoma is a state where lesser included offenses are not automatically included and either the prosecution or the defense can ask the judge to include lesser charges for consideration. So it appears that both sides really gambled on this case and the defense won.

http://www.stwnewspress.com/ne...92-335a7ea31faf.html

quote:
According to the instructions presented to the jury after evidence and testimony was given in court, "no person may be convicted of murder in the first degree unless the State has proved beyond a reasonable doubt each element of the crime." The listed elements are that someone died, their death was unlawful, the defendant caused the death and that it was caused by malice aforethought.

"'Malice aforethought' means a deliberate intention to take away the life of a human being. As used in these instructions, 'malice aforethought' does not mean hatred, spite or ill-will. The deliberate intent to take a human life must be formed before the act and must exist at the time a homicidal act is committed. No particular length of time is required for formation of this deliberate intent. The intent may have been formed instantly before commission of the act."

More detail on the testimony and defense in that linked article. The defense said that the video only showed half of the story, that you couldn't see what he was doing off camera

The coroner testified he was shot in the back and the bullet exited his upper chest.

quote:
Originally posted by rusbro:
quote:
Originally posted by David W:
Looks like murder to me as well. So you withhold evidence just to let it see the light of day after the trial? I don't think we are dealing with the smartest people here.

Yep. I mean, if you're gonna withhold obviously extremely incriminating evidence, seems to me priority numero uno would be to make certain it was completely destroyed.

The video was shown in court and was the basis for the first degree murder charge.

March 27, 2018, 12:38 PM

PorterN

quote:
Originally posted by Georgeair:
quote:
first degree murder charge

IANAL, but that seems to be where the prosecutor got greedy and screwed the pooch. Can't imagine she wouldn't have been convicted on an even slightly lesser charge. Nobody's going to find for premeditation on that unless being stupid counts.

agreed. All defense had to do was prove it didn't fit the charge of FIRST degree murder because of no premeditation/ intent to commit the murder.

second degree murder, manslaughter, etc. plenty of other wrongful-death-murder-type charges that could've, I'd think, easily gotten a conviction.

March 27, 2018, 12:40 PM

Sig2340

quote:
Originally posted by darthfuster:
Self defense. Shot in the back. Mmmm K.

In Wyoming where there was the infamous Johnson County War between cattlemen and pretty much everyone else.

So far as I know, of all the killings that took place, only one was ruled self-defense: what is descried as "the cold blood killing of Dudley Champion" by Michael Shonsey.

My point is a claim of self-defense may get you off, even if you shoot someone in cold blood.

March 27, 2018, 12:45 PM

jc91087

I find it crazy that she isn't charged because they brought the wrong degree of murder against her.

March 27, 2018, 12:46 PM

Southflorida-law

quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:And you're a lawyer? I hope you don't deal wth criminal defense. Really, I don't.

Almost 20 years as a criminal defense attorney, public defender, special public defender and private, 72 jury trials to verdict (state and federal). And in my experience, that was the reason for the not guilty from the jury.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

(and I won a lot of cases using the NHI defense)

March 27, 2018, 12:46 PM

John Steed

I can't understand that at all. The guy seemed calm and relaxed, talking about cars and such. It wasn't until she wanted to put cuffs on him that he resisted, but it was without violence, just more like he refused to cooperate. He was a well-muscled guy. He could have put both mother and son out of commission easily, but did not get violent with them.

If all he was trying to do was escape out the window, where was the need to shoot?

March 27, 2018, 01:01 PM

c1steve

Yes, the DA screwed up. And that woman, when she is mad nothing gets in her way of getting what she wants.

March 27, 2018, 01:21 PM

old rugged cross

I will not say what I feel. I hope the family sues her till the cows come home. Or at least till she has to join those on the street that I am sure she abused with pleasure. That was horrible.

March 27, 2018, 01:41 PM

zoom6zoom

Watching the vid..... self defense is bullshit. He never lays a hand on her, makes no threats or threatening actions, tries to evade her closing with him. Prior to the scuffle, he's cooperating, talking freely, I don't see why she felt the need to exert more control by trying to cuff him.

March 27, 2018, 01:59 PM

ZSMICHAEL

JAllen is correct being a bail bondsman is a tough job. Sadly there is a lot of abuse within the field. The public is largely unaware of what goes on, and the latitude these people have in terms of "getting their man."

Several years back two bondsman attempted to smash in the door of a trailer. That is stupid to begin with as trailer doors open outward. In any event they drug this guy out of bed held a gun to his head and cuffed him. Twenty minutes later they determined they got the wrong trailer. They removed the cuffs and sped away. Nothing happened to them. Poor kid was traumatized.

March 27, 2018, 03:05 PM

h2oys

Wow, whether the PA used the wrong charge or not it sure looks like a cold blooded murder to me.

March 27, 2018, 03:06 PM

parabellum

quote:
Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Oh, gosh yes, platitudes are an appropriate response.

I'm glad that you were able to determine that his life wasn't worth shit and that he deserved to be murdered because he'd been to jail.

And don't tell me that's not what you said, because it is what you said.

March 27, 2018, 03:10 PM

TMats

Murder.

March 27, 2018, 03:18 PM

justjoe

Hard to watch, and the worst shooting video I've seen. Not only murder, but cold blooded murder. It was like she swatted a fly. Her boy will deal with that his whole life long.