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| Too old to run, too mean to quit! |
Sad story!! Were I guiding a bear hunting party, I would make sure that every member at least knew how to use every weapon available. Several decades ago we returned to the US from a 4 year assignment in Germany. We went to my home in Idaho to do some elk hunting. My wife who had never fired any kind of gun was taught how to use the Win. 25/35 before we went into the woods. The forestry service at that time was almost insistent that every member of the party was able to use at least one "hunting" weapon. My side arm at that time was a S&W 357. My brother was a state cop and he had his duty weapon, also a 357. Elk There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour) "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. " -Thomas Jefferson "America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville FBHO!!! The Idaho Elk Hunter | |||
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| Member |
As someone who has logged a lot of backcountry miles in Wyoming, Idaho and Montana, I have seen my share of Grizzlies. With that being said - folks hiking with me are always astonished at how stealthy and quick they are. A weapon is only of use if it can be brought into action swiftly. A motivated Grizzly can cover 50 yards in 2-3 seconds. In thicker cover, your reaction time would probably be 1 second or less. As far as Pepper Spray - forget it. It's a $49 tourist rip-off. Heck - 90% of the time I have been out there prevailing winds were 12-15 MPH. 1/4 chance the wind is moving in the direction your are aiming/discharging. Best defense is awareness, education and avoidance. When hunting in these areas - remember that you are NOT the Apex Predator there, regardless of what caliber of weapon you are toting. | |||
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| As Extraordinary as Everyone Else  |
Well the most portant lesson in that situations to keep you LOADED gun on you instead of keeping an unloaded gun several feet away from you... ------------------ Eddie Our Founding Fathers were men who understood that the right thing is not necessarily the written thing. -kkina | |||
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Member |
I think we can learn the following. 1. When it comes to bears and wildlife in general, all bets are off. They can do anything at anytime. 2. When in bear country you need to have your weapon in a position and state to where it can immediately be deployed. 3. Be ever vigilant while tending to downed game in bear country. 4. A revolver may be a better choice than a semi automatic pistol if your companions aren’t armed and may need to use your weapon. That’s what immediately comes to mind anyway after reading the article. Sad situation that. Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong. Do everything in love. - 1 Corinthians 16:13-14 | |||
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| Member |
My take away on this: 1- Major tactical error in taking off the Glock to do the field dress. 2- Second tactical error was the empty chamber. 3- Unarmed and untrained client. And for those of you in Griz country, do you consider 10mm to be an adequate bear gun? For black bear, sure! but Grizzly? End of Earth: 2 Miles Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles | |||
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| Member |
Yes. Everyone one should know how to use available pistols/revolvers or rifles/shotguns in a hunting party. I don’t know the hunting rules in Wyoming concerning back up pistols or other firearms during archery season. At least have someone watching out while the field dressing is being done. With pistol in hand ready to fire. Two people doesn’t seem to be enough while dressing out a big animal like an elk and in grizzly country to boot! | |||
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Waiting for Hachiko |
Winchester 25/35, rare caliber now, not so rare many years ago. 美しい犬 | |||
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Member |
Take off your firearms, you are unarmed. In grizzly county. At a fresh kill. Now an example. | |||
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Legalize the Constitution |
Do you live in that 3-state area?
You may well be an experienced hiker in grizzly country. Up until a couple years ago, I was the District Ranger on the very district where this guide was killed. My own experience is that there are not usually 12-15 mph winds and that bear spray has proven to be an effective deterrent. When I fished the back country I carried a big bore pistol in a chest holster, but I also carried bear spray, and I would deploy it first. I’m told that Gunsite teaches a back country predator defense course and recommends deploying both bear spray AND a big bore revolver at the same time. Fog the area between the bear and you, if it breaks off—great! If it doesn’t—shoot. You give the impression that if you encounter a bear, it’s already too late and you’re fucked. Be aware of your surroundings, scan constantly, and make some noise; especially if you happen to be in heavy timber or the willows along a stream or river. Avoid surprising the bear, and it’s likely it will avoid surprising you. You can argue that they should carry a 12 gauge with slugs, but my old district has both a heavy and a light trail crew. They spend the entire summer in the Teton Wilderness, and have for years. No incidents. _______________________________________________________ despite them | |||
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Member |
I live near Glacier National Park. I have 2 friends who have been attacked by Grizzlies in the last few years. The first got a shoulder well chewed up and the second got a bunch of bumps, a concussion and a helicopter ride to the hospital. Nasty animals.This message has been edited. Last edited by: mcrimm, I'm sorry if I hurt you feelings when I called you stupid - I thought you already knew - Unknown ................................... When you have no future, you live in the past. " Sycamore Row" by John Grisham | |||
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Member |
Yep. A series of stupid ass mistakes resulting in a stupid prize by the hunters. And I'm sure they had to put the grizz down because it acted upon it's instincts of how to stay alive in it's environment while the hunters ignored every basic instinct of their supposed superior performing brain. Were it me one would be field dressing the elk while the other is watching for any approaching bears. Sure it's going to take longer but dead is a pretty long time. "Fixed fortifications are monuments to mans stupidity" - George S. Patton | |||
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| Member |
I am tainted when it comes to Pepper Spray - had a bear encounter in The Moran Range in 2009 and the group in front of me discharged their Bear Guard into the wind - at a "black" bear that was simply crossing the trail head and slowed down for a sniff test. Their party - and mine - spent 20 minutes with our heads in the nearby stream. Bear left on its own anyway. I don't live in the Tri State area - but I have been hiking out there annually since 1998. Albeit - most of my time spent there is in Sept-Oct - thus my opinion on wind speeds. I don't think you are screwed if you see a bear. I just think many folks get a false sense of security when carrying a weapon or spray and forget all the other common sense factors that would otherwise help them avoid an unpleasant wildlife encounter. (including Moose as well  ) | |||
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Bolt Thrower |
I hope to move out to the Kalispell/Whitefish area soon. I can't fathom why he didn't chamber a round in his glock. Even more puzzling is taking it off when he started working on a big slab of bear bait. | |||
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| Green grass and high tides |
T-Mats, Granite guy makes points that trump yours 100 times over. While BS should be carried and used if the situation warrants it. In many of these situations and more happening all the time. I am talking hunter not trail hikers either. The bears can come unannounced and in a matter of seconds in heavy brush where only a gun is going to be somewhat effective with little of next to no time to react. Trying to deploy both in that type of a situation will get you killed most likely. A Glock 10mm with a good bullet is fine in Grizzly country. "Practice like you want to play in the game" | |||
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| Oh stewardess, I speak jive.  |
I'm sorry (not really), but what sort of dumbass doesn't have their pistol loaded in the woods in bear country? An unloaded gun is an expensive distraction when it matters most. | |||
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| Legalize the Constitution |
Which point exactly was I trumpted “100 times over” on? It’s not clear to me. No disrespect, but what exactly are your credentials on grizzly bears? Finally, I know the fabled 10mm is beloved here, reported to “kill a man’s soul,” but the largest hard cast round you can get for one is 220 grains. Might work, but my .44 mag handles 305 grain rounds, and it’s not near the most effective side arm in a world of .454 and .500 caliber revolvers. BTW, this fatal attack occurred about 2 1/2 months ago, and was discussed in this forum. _______________________________________________________ despite them | |||
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| Oh stewardess, I speak jive. |
Thanks for sharing your first hand experience there in that area. Clearly you know what you're taking about here, having been there and done that a bunch. This statement, however, makes me question what the Gunsite folks are teaching in that course... do you agree with this? If so, why? It sounds like patently terrible advice:
Why, if concerned for your safety and within Fog or Pistol range of an advancing or threatening Grizzly, and compelled enough to do anything at all, would anyone who is lucky enough to have a firearm handy start with Bear Spray instead? Isn't that tantamount to the faulty Shoot Em In The Leg argument some make? Why take that chance? Every second matters in terms of getting shots on target in the heat of the moment, why wouldn't one start with the best tool you have available? | |||
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Drill Here, Drill Now |
Yep, JibJab Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer. | |||
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| Drill Here, Drill Now |
You're making the leap that at 25ish feet that the bear is advancing or threatening. That distance can be a lot of non-threatening reasons such as bear walking across trail in front of quiet hikers. Additionally, why kill a bear if you don't have to? If you can spray bear spray and it goes away the bear learns to avoid people and the person doesn't have to kill a bear. One thing I learned in my 5 years in Anchorage (not sure on other state's laws) is that if you shoot a bear you are responsible for paying for the bear's brain tested for disease and having its carcass hauled off. I certainly didn't want to fork out a $1000+ unless I needed to so I carried a 454 and bear spray. Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer. | |||
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