I need advice on which to buy. I am not a huge fan of them but we have a dog that we just adopted that if you open a door or gate he slips right out and into the road up to the neighbors house to nip their Burmese mountain dog. I am trying to avoid this dog getting killed, I need him to RETURN on command. He is currently being trained professionally but it just started so we aren't where we need to be yet. He is a 9 month Aussie cattle dog. He currently weighs 30 lbs. and I don't expect him to get much bigger. Other trainers recommended a device known as the Mini- Educator. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please keep in mind it's being used just for the reasons mentioned above. His normal training is being done using positive reinforcement. Thanks in advance, John

tri-tronics is the one I see most when hunting, probably, followed by dogtra and sportdog. check out collarclinic.com for good deals on reconditioned shock collars.

Dogtra is what I see used most often by professionals. Be sure to get trained how to use it. It is not hard to ruin your relationship with your pooch if you use it incorrectly.

I've always used the E-collar as a backup to the training. I've not used it directly as a training tool although some do. Mine were Tritronics collars and have worked well. My labs always wore one but I can probably count on two hands the number of times I had to activate it because they understood from their training that I could use it. I called it the "hearing aid" as the dog seemed to hear a lot better with the collar on.

For the E-collar to be effective, like any other negative reinforcement, the dog needs to understand what he should be doing and why he's receiving the E stimulus. It takes time and training to get the dog to the point that the E-collar is effective. Otherwise, you are just "burning" him for not good reason. And, it doesn't achieve the desired result.

That's my two cents.

There are some books out there that cover the details of using the E-collar as a direct training device. Suggest you pick one up. You can probably find a link on Tritronics website.

quote:

Originally posted by YellowJacket:
tri-tronics is the one I see most when hunting, probably, followed by dogtra and sportdog. check out collarclinic.com for good deals on reconditioned shock collars.

A neighbor (well, he lives in Yarnell, but we run into each other in Wickenburg a good bit) is a dog trainer. He trains many different breeds for lion (mountain lion) tracking. At any time, he has about two dozen dogs in his stable. He goes out on horseback when he is training the dogs for tracking. He is a sponsored trainer for SportDog, meaning he gets their equipment free and evaluates it for them. But that is a sideline. When he is working, he uses TriTronics, which is now owned by Garmin. He uses the model with the GPS feature (Alpha, I believe). He says the TriTronics is superior to the SportDog, but what does he know?
 
My wife is also a retired dog trainer, formerly a police K9 handler. I have learned a lot from her about using the e-collars. For one thing, you must have the collar on the dog at least an hour, preferably a day, before you intend to use it, and also the same period of time after using it. If you put the collar on too close to the use time, the dog learns to be "collar aware", and will change behavior simply to avoid the correction when the collar is on, but otherwise revert to the unwanted behavior when the collar is off. TriTronics even sells dummy collars that you can use for this, while you charge the real one. The dummies are nothing but worn out real collars, with dead batteries and all to achieve the same feel as the real thing. There is a bunch more to the how-to's of using an e-collar. My wife has also always used TriTronics.
 
 

quote:

Originally posted by YellowJacket:
tri-tronics is the one I see most when hunting, probably, followed by dogtra and sportdog. check out collarclinic.com for good deals on reconditioned shock collars.

^^^^^^^
Cabelas also has their own brand that I have used as well as Tri-tronics. I would try and stay away from any model that uses proprietary batteries. In addition, it is worth the extra $$$ for a model that has more training levels (shock levles). In addition, the higher end models will have different size contact points that can be switched out instead of a one size fits all point. This is a nice feature that my current one does not have. In short, based upon your dog's coat you can adjust the contact points so that you aren't getting to little or too much contact.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
Dogtra is what I see used most often by professionals. Be sure to get trained how to use it. It is not hard to ruin your relationship with your pooch if you use it incorrectly.

This. I gave up on Tritronics and switch to Dogtra and am glad I did.

The dog HAS to be collar conditioned and your trainer better know how to do it right. If any doubt, find a new trainer!

My dog trainer use SportDog equipment mostly, I'm very happy with the Sport Hunter 1825 on my lab.

This is a great site to read about the collars and they have quality dog training supplies including electronic collars.
http://www.gundogsupply.com/
As already mentioned, these require the correct usage to work properly. I purchased one that came with the training video and it worked well. When I bought mine several years ago I called them and they have some that were last years model that were much less than the latest and greatest.

I am not a fan of them. Does not mean they do not have a place.

Your little Aussie is undoubtedly very smart they almost always are. I do not know what professionally trained means exactly. Not bonding with you comes to mind.

I take these kinds of things at a basic simplistic level.

I would put him on a leash every time I took him out. He will learn a new behavior about what going outside is all about. Do not be shy in correcting him via a good quick jerk of the leash and a command. Limit the command language you use and only use it to correct or direct him.
Also keep a tasty bag or treats on your person all the time and reward him for good behavior.
He'll get it.

Also look up long line training on the net and Youtube. I have found this very effective in training your dog to come on command. He first and foremost has to see you as the leader of his pack.
The younger you can teach them the better. A puupies ability to learn is like a funnel. For their first year the learning funnel is in the conventional funnel position. After that the learning funnel position is inverted. So obviously their ability to learn and absorb is early in their development..

I use Dogtra. It has been great. Mine has over 120 settings but I rarely need to go much passed the minimum setting of 26. He reacts well at 26 and unless he sees his arch enemy Mr Fox I don't have to change it t all.

Here is a very basic into to collar conditioning:

http://youtu.be/iG_ZBYmzlq0

There is much more to it, but it helps explain what it is about. You have to teach the dog what the pressure is and the appropriate avenue to alleviate the pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by GotDogs:
He is a 9 month Aussie cattle dog.

You are absolutely right to get an e-collar for a Queensland/austrailan cattle dog. They make Missouri mules look positively agreeable.

We have Sport Dog collars and have been very happy with them. When my wife made a pet out of one of the goat dog puppies (Anatolian/Great Pyrenees cross), we put the longer electrodes on to get through the heavy neck coat. We had others before, but we take the dogs to the beach sometimes and the other collars didn't do well at all with that. The Sport Dog collars appear to have actually gotten the "waterproof" thing right.

Our first introduction to shock collars (my wife was very anti initially) was when we lived in a neighborhood and our Queensland/Lab mix, Bella, who totally loved kids very quickly picked up everything, even "You don't even think about stepping off the curb without permission" except she thought there was a special exemption when there were kids across the street. It was just a matter of time until she was going to get hit. You couldn't chase her down and discipline her after the fact, you had to nail her stepping off the curb. So the wife broke down and got an e-collar. It didn't take long at all for Bella to get the message. Once she did, collar or no collar, when there were kids across the street, you'd see her with all four of her feet as close to the edge of the curb they could get, nose as far out as she could get, whining softly to be released. Once you got close enough to check traffic and said, "Okay.", she was across the street before you finished the "y".

Our current Queensland is a rescue from the pound. He was about a year old when we got him and had obviously been abused by males. He is two now and had made a ton of progress, but it still takes a very gentle hand in training him and working with him on anything. Disapproval in expression, let alone a stern voice, is to him what a good thump would be to most Queenslands.

As far as the neighbor's Burmese (Thanks for that! I thought maybe it was a typo and googled only to end up learning about a whole new breed. Temple Guardians, cool!) hopefully it will recognize your Queensland as a puppy and discipline gently rather than lethally. Still, much better to control your dog and avoid the potential problem.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
I am not a fan of them. Does not mean they do not have a place.

Your little Aussie is undoubtedly very smart they almost always are. I do not know what professionally trained means exactly. Not bonding with you comes to mind.

I take these kinds of things at a basic simplistic level.

I would put him on a leash every time I took him out. He will learn a new behavior about what going outside is all about. Do not be shy in correcting him via a good quick jerk of the leash and a command. Limit the command language you use and only use it to correct or direct him.
Also keep a tasty bag or treats on your person all the time and reward him for good behavior.
He'll get it.

Also look up long line training on the net and Youtube. I have found this very effective in training your dog to come on command. He first and foremost has to see you as the leader of his pack.
The younger you can teach them the better. A puupies ability to learn is like a funnel. For their first year the learning funnel is in the conventional funnel position. After that the learning funnel position is inverted. So obviously their ability to learn and absorb is early in their development..

My choice of words was wrong it's me and the Mrs. being trained to work our dog. We are present and totally involved. Thanks for the advice to EVERYONE so far!

Because of the potential danger to the dog if it gets out, I'm not going to say don't use an e-collar, so long as it's properly done. But I would try other things first.

Does the dog get daily walks/runs? If his energy is drained, and he's also used to the ritual of putting the leash on before leaving the house, that can help a lot.

Also, have you worked with the dog at the door, training him that he is not allowed to pass through without your permission? There are techniques you can use to teach him to respect your authority over the threshold and wait for permission to cross.

SportDog is the brand we use. They're waterproof, have very good range, and are extremely durable. On top of that, they offer vibrate and a wide range of intensity for electric stimulus.

Once had a hunting buddy of mine say, "Get a collar and put it on her", "No, not the dog, the wife. Put the collar on the wife and train her not to allow the dog free reign undoing all your dog training work". Got a laugh out of that.

I use Tri-Tronics. I've had one for ~5 years since getting my first dog. Had to dust it off for the new puppy I got last month.

I have a cheap amazon collar on my 2 Danes.

They both wear normal ID collars all the time and the younger Dane has the electronic collar on all the time (although it's loosened in the house). The older Dane only gets the E-collar on when going outside.

We are all trained properly with its use and they get to roam the front yard (3+ acres out of 9 total) 2-3 times a day. The collar does tone, vibrate, and shock.

At this point at most I have to use on a regular basis is a short 'vibrate' command to the collars to them, mostly to get their attention from some crap on the ground or smell. Usually a short tone be equally effective.

Two weeks ago something irresistable must have been outside the night before (maybe deer in heat? IDK), because they were completely immersed in it. Even then, after no response to vibrate, a short, low dose shock was all they needed to cage their brains that following the smell out of their area was not a good idea.

Like everything else, it's not just the tool, but how it is (properly) employed.