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Do No Harm,
Do Know Harm
posted
I’ve got a GFCI that’s tripping and I can’t figure out why. I think it’s at the end-run to satisfy a bathroom that’s included in a circuit with three rooms.

I’ve unplugged everything from the run and tested the wires going to the outlet and there is uninterrupted power, but it either won’t reset, or if it will it trips again. I pulled the wires out of it and made sure they were clean and tightened them back up. There’s nothing down stream from it, and no outlets upstream that don’t have power.

I’m thinking the outlet is bad, but before I replace it I wanted to see if there was something else I should consider. Right now it simply won’t reset, which I think should mean there’s no power to it, but when I check the wires with a multimeter, it’s got 120v with no issues.

If I was going to look for an issue upstream, what would I do to check? There’s probably 15 outlets and 5 switch boxes on the circuit, which seems like a lot to me but there’s not much plugged in usually in those rooms. Nothing plugged in at all right now, and all switches off.




Knowing what one is talking about is widely admired but not strictly required here.

Although sometimes distracting, there is often a certain entertainment value to this easy standard.
-JALLEN

"All I need is a WAR ON DRUGS reference and I got myself a police thread BINGO." -jljones
 
Posts: 11441 | Location: NC | Registered: August 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by chongosuerte:
I’ve got a GFCI that’s tripping and I can’t figure out why. I think it’s at the end-run to satisfy a bathroom that’s included in a circuit with three rooms.

I’ve unplugged everything from the run and tested the wires going to the outlet and there is uninterrupted power, but it either won’t reset, or if it will it trips again. I pulled the wires out of it and made sure they were clean and tightened them back up. There’s nothing down stream from it, and no outlets upstream that don’t have power.

I’m thinking the outlet is bad, but before I replace it I wanted to see if there was something else I should consider. Right now it simply won’t reset, which I think should mean there’s no power to it, but when I check the wires with a multimeter, it’s got 120v with no issues.

If I was going to look for an issue upstream, what would I do to check? There’s probably 15 outlets and 5 switch boxes on the circuit, which seems like a lot to me but there’s not much plugged in usually in those rooms. Nothing plugged in at all right now, and all switches off.
Replace the outlet . Nothing upstream is going to be the issue .
 
Posts: 3964 | Location: Down in Louisiana . | Registered: February 27, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
A Grateful American
Picture of sigmonkey
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GFCI have a lifespan of about 10-15 years, but can fail much sooner, in just a few years. (like lightbulbs)

And one they start "tripping" for any reason, they will fail sooner, even when the issue is fixed.

Replacing the GFCI is the quickest "fix" (time and money) even though some will insult your "poor troubleshooting" method of being a "part replacer" and not a "real" technician.

Ignore them.

Second is any moisture in the outlet (like outlets outside or high humidity areas), dust, loose wiring, breakdown of insulation jacket, geckos and thier eggs, (they love to nest in boxes), or an outlet that is used a lot that gets worn, and having heavy loads on the circuit. (Microwaves are one such item).

If outside or garage outlets are on the same circuit, check them for any corrosion and replace them, and seal them properly.

HTH




"the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב!
 
Posts: 43799 | Location: ...... I am thrice divorced, and I live in a van DOWN BY THE RIVER!!! (in Arkansas) | Registered: December 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
posted Hide Post
Bad attitude, I know, but the OP has done a lot more debugging than I would have before replacing the outlet. If I were going to give him any grief at all, it would be for overthinking it, *not* for poor troubleshooting skills. Big Grin

Time is money after all.
 
Posts: 6864 | Location: Lost, but making time. | Registered: February 23, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do No Harm,
Do Know Harm
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by slosig:
Bad attitude, I know, but the OP has done a lot more debugging than I would have before replacing the outlet. If I were going to give him any grief at all, it would be for overthinking it, *not* for poor troubleshooting skills. Big Grin

Time is money after all.


Well…my wife may get pissy if I burn down the house lol. Wanted to cover my bases before I swapped it out.

Which was a good idea…I need to check the external outlets just to see if any are causing any issues. I don’t think they are on this circuit, but I also didn’t think the problem outlet was. Some electrician really had to work to make it so.




Knowing what one is talking about is widely admired but not strictly required here.

Although sometimes distracting, there is often a certain entertainment value to this easy standard.
-JALLEN

"All I need is a WAR ON DRUGS reference and I got myself a police thread BINGO." -jljones
 
Posts: 11441 | Location: NC | Registered: August 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
posted Hide Post
I had a GFCI breaker that started doing that. What finally told the story was I removed the hot wire from the breaker and it still randomly tripped.

Replaced the breaker. Problem solved.

quote:
Originally posted by sigmonkey:
GFCI have a lifespan of about 10-15 years,

I've multiple GFCI outlets in our home that are going on thirty years old. They don't trip unnecessarily and they do trip on a test.

quote:
Originally posted by sigmonkey:
Second is ... dust, ...

Dust? I suppose if it's moist dust, or conductive (metallic) dust, but plain old house dust?

Heck, even the GFCI outlet in our garage, which is one of the going-on-thirty-years-old GFCI outlets, where it's certainly dusty, has so far given me no trouble.



"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
 
Posts: 25991 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
Picture of Skins2881
posted Hide Post
If you feel the need to do more testing, remove the load wires from the outlet and test for continuity between neutral and ground to see if there's an obvious ground fault.

After that the next test is replacing the GFI. If that doesn't work we can move on to step three.

What year was the house built?



Jesse

Sic Semper Tyrannis
 
Posts: 20742 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: December 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Witticism pending...
Picture of KBobAries
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Have you completely isolated the circuit? Is there something wired in that you don't know about? The exterior outlet on my back patio is controlled by the GFCI in the garage at the front of the house. And yes, that's code around here. My home inspector taught me that before closing on the house.

Dan



I'm not as illiterate as my typos would suggest.
 
Posts: 3529 | Location: Big city, SW state, alleged republic | Registered: January 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do No Harm,
Do Know Harm
posted Hide Post
House was built in 2017.

Just pulled it out and checked the ground, all appears good.

I’ll put a new one in this evening and we’ll see how it goes.




Knowing what one is talking about is widely admired but not strictly required here.

Although sometimes distracting, there is often a certain entertainment value to this easy standard.
-JALLEN

"All I need is a WAR ON DRUGS reference and I got myself a police thread BINGO." -jljones
 
Posts: 11441 | Location: NC | Registered: August 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Only the strong survive
Picture of 41
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One GFCI in the downstairs bathroom controls the upstairs bathroom, basement bathroom, patio and garage circuit to the outside.

I went nuts trying to figure what was wrong with the other circuits when the downstairs GFCI was tripped. Mad


41
 
Posts: 11828 | Location: Herndon, VA | Registered: June 11, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
geckos and their eggs, (they love to nest in boxes)

We have no geckos up here, so we use spiderwebs instead. Big Grin
 
Posts: 1345 | Location: WI | Registered: July 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Get my pies
outta the oven!

Picture of PASig
posted Hide Post
GFCI’s do randomly go bad/fry way before their supposed 10-15 year lifespan is up.


 
Posts: 33572 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
Picture of Skins2881
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by chongosuerte:
House was built in 2017.

Just pulled it out and checked the ground, all appears good.

I’ll put a new one in this evening and we’ll see how it goes.


If the house was built in 2017 you've got something confused, or your inspector was on drugs. The bathroom is to be served by a 20a rated circuit that only powers bathroom outlets, so max 4-8 outlets depending on size of house and no lights. Alternatively you can have one 20a circuit that powers all items within a bathroom, but no loads outside of that particular bathroom.

Also if wired by to code you can skip checking exterior and garage outlet as it's against code to be shared.



Jesse

Sic Semper Tyrannis
 
Posts: 20742 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: December 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Skins2881:
The bathroom is to be served by a 20a rated circuit that only powers bathroom outlets, ...

Ha!

One 20A circuit in our place:

I'm fairly certain this was original:

Light, Basement, W
Light, Bath, Main
Light, Bedroom, Master
Light, Computer Rm
Light, Guest Rm
Light, Hallway
Outlet, Bath, Main
Outlet, Computer Rm, E
Outlet, Computer Rm, N
Outlet, Guest Rm, S
Outlet, Guest Rm, W

To this, I'm pretty certain the original owner tacked-on:

Light, Bath, Master
Light, Man Cave (corner room in basement)
Outlet, Bath, Master
Outlet, Exterior, SW




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
 
Posts: 25991 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ignored facts
still exist
posted Hide Post
A nearby Radio Transmitter can trip a GFCI. Particularly an older GFCI.

In this case, Radio Transmitter is something stronger than your WiFi or cellphone. Like CB / Ham / Sheriff's VHF radio / AM radio station nearby, etc.

ETA:
quote:
Right now it simply won’t reset,


Ok, probably not a transmitter then. I'd just replace it and then if it trips after replacement then that's another matter to dive deeper into.


----------------------
Let's Go Brandon!
 
Posts: 10860 | Location: 45 miles from the Pacific Ocean | Registered: February 28, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Page late and a dollar short
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 41:
One GFCI in the downstairs bathroom controls the upstairs bathroom, basement bathroom, patio and garage circuit to the outside.

I went nuts trying to figure what was wrong with the other circuits when the downstairs GFCI was tripped. Mad


I had a GFCI that we forgot was there. Corner cabinet with a roll up door. As we never used that outlet it was forgotten after some time. It tripped due to a power outage/surge when the power came back on, we couldn’t find out why half the outlets in the kitchen didn’t work. Seventy five dollars later the electrician found the forgotten GFCI outlet.

Now we remember it!


-------------------------------------——————
————————--Ignorance is a powerful tool if applied at the right time, even, usually, surpassing knowledge(E.J.Potter, A.K.A. The Michigan Madman)
 
Posts: 8065 | Location: Livingston County Michigan USA | Registered: August 11, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by shovelhead:
quote:
Originally posted by 41:
I went nuts trying to figure what was wrong with the other circuits when the downstairs GFCI was tripped. Mad

I had a GFCI that we forgot was there. Corner cabinet with a roll up door. As we never used that outlet it was forgotten after some time.

Which is why I have a pair of sheets of paper folded and tucked into the breaker panel. One lists every light and outlet, by room or area, and the breakers they're on. The other lists each breaker, with every light and outlet it controls. At the bottom of one is a "chart" that indicates which breaker is on which 240VAC "leg." For each listing that has a generator transfer associated with it, that switch is listed, too.

And I still check a light or outlet for "hotness," before and after killing the branch circuit for work. Better safe than sorry.

Saved my ass, one time, too. I'd made a mistake in listing something and the breaker I'd turned off was not the breaker for that outlet or light.



"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
 
Posts: 25991 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
Picture of Skins2881
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
quote:
Originally posted by Skins2881:
The bathroom is to be served by a 20a rated circuit that only powers bathroom outlets, ...

Ha!

One 20A circuit in our place:

I'm fairly certain this was original:

Light, Basement, W
Light, Bath, Main
Light, Bedroom, Master
Light, Computer Rm
Light, Guest Rm
Light, Hallway
Outlet, Bath, Main
Outlet, Computer Rm, E
Outlet, Computer Rm, N
Outlet, Guest Rm, S
Outlet, Guest Rm, W

To this, I'm pretty certain the original owner tacked-on:

Light, Bath, Master
Light, Man Cave (corner room in basement)
Outlet, Bath, Master
Outlet, Exterior, SW



Code by year of construction:

Prior to 1977 +/- bath outlets were free for all.

After 1977, must be GFI protected, usually but not always grouped with exterior, garage, and unfinished spaces.

After 1997ish the setup I described regarding his 2017 house.

Was yours built before 1980? Or did a previous homeowner do unpermitted work?



Jesse

Sic Semper Tyrannis
 
Posts: 20742 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: December 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Page late and a dollar short
posted Hide Post
Our old breaker panel had some mis-marked circuits, found out when I was home one day while using a circuit tester. So after a couple trips from upstairs to the basement I figured screw it, I’ll flip the main breaker.

Only problem, breaker off and the house was still powered! Flipped it a couple times, no difference. And the best part, nobody had a new breaker available, discontinued from what several supply houses said. I did find some “rebuilt” ones. Never knew such a thing existed but opted for a new panel instead.

House was built in ‘94, this was about ‘12 or so Replaced it with a Square D panel.


-------------------------------------——————
————————--Ignorance is a powerful tool if applied at the right time, even, usually, surpassing knowledge(E.J.Potter, A.K.A. The Michigan Madman)
 
Posts: 8065 | Location: Livingston County Michigan USA | Registered: August 11, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Skins2881:
Was yours built before 1980?

1968, if memory serves.

quote:
Originally posted by Skins2881:
Or did a previous homeowner do unpermitted work?

He almost certainly did. By "almost" I mean I'm 99-44/100% certain.

In addition to last year fixing the garage before it literally fell down, due to it being expanded poorly: There has been not a single thing upon which I've worked, structural or electrical, that was done right, much less to code.

And I keep finding new wonders. Wonders such as this...



when I went to replace a ceiling light in the kitchen, last year.

Yes: That is exactly the way I found it when I removed the old fixture. It's obvious that it had been connected once-upon-a-time. Apparently somebody saw fit not to bother re-connecting it at some point.



"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
 
Posts: 25991 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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