For years, I have harrassed friends and associates, in real life as well as here on SF, with the idea that public schools have descended to such a pitiful state that we would do well to be done with it, close them, fire the teachers, sell the real estate and at least initially provide for the education of our children with vouchers redeemable by private institutions offering whatever educational programs parents demanded, from basic literacy and trade courses to Rhodes Scholar preparatory programs.

Although gradually, very gradually, a few more have come over to support my view, for the most part it has been a very lonely position.

It is no exaggeration to say that I have been overjoyed to find out that others held very similar views, despite being completely unknown to me. The biggest discovery is a book first published 10 years ago but recently come to my attention, “Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality” by Charles Murray, who has given much thought to just about every issue involved, has the fscts and figures, and organization of the ideas to make a very compelling case.

Now, he doesn't go as far as closing the echools, sell the real estate, but I suspect he would support that plan if seriously proposed. He wants to get rid of the Departments of Education, teachers unions, scrap the curriculum now in vogue, and especially the preposterous idea that everyone is equal in ability to benefit from academic work.

“The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal.” Aristotle

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JALLEN,

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Although gradually, very gradually, a few more have come over to support my view, for the most part it has been a very lonely position.

I'm with you!

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“Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality” by Charles Murray

Good book.

I'm with you too JALLEN when it comes to doing away with public education. Unfortunately, I've grown to believe (depressingly) that it will only change, if and when it collapses. And I just don't see it being allowed to collapse given the number of people in Washington with their hands out to the NEA.

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Originally posted by bigdeal:
I'm with you too JALLEN when it comes to doing away with public education. Unfortunately, I've grown to believe (depressingly) that it will only change, if and when it collapses. And I just don't see it being allowed to collapse given the number of people in Washington with their hands out to the NEA.

It will eventually collapse, but if enough people come to see the gross deficiencies, utter waste and appalling ineffectiveness, maybe it can happen before collapse.

I won’t live to see it, in all likelihood, but it is still a good idea.

Except for a smattering of grades (3rd,5th,7th and 8th), I was homeschooled.

I use the term loosely, because I was mostly self-taught. Somehow, I still managed excellent SAT scores, a double major/double minor in various business disciplines and history, and later an MBA from a top-10 school.

Sample size of 1, of course... but it just shows that success can be achieved outside of public schooling. I attended 3 different Catholic schools in different cities, never stepped foot into a public school.

I’m barely over 30, so this isn’t an antiquated notion from the 1920’s.

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Originally posted by JALLEN:

“The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal.” Aristotle

Words spoken 2300 years ago, and the left STILL hasn't figured it out.

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Originally posted by reloader-1:
Except for a smattering of grades (3rd,5th,7th and 8th), I was homeschooled.

I use the term loosely, because I was mostly self-taught. Somehow, I still managed excellent SAT scores, a double major/double minor in various business disciplines and history, and later an MBA from a top-10 school.

Sample size of 1, of course... but it just shows that success can be achieved outside of public schooling. I attended 3 different Catholic schools in different cities, never stepped foot into a public school.

I’m barely over 30, so this isn’t an antiquated notion from the 1920’s.

This is one of the ironies. We spend a fortune, those who have academic ability don’t really need that much, and those who don’t have ability can’t use it.

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I attended 3 different Catholic schools in different cities, never stepped foot into a public school.

I attended 3 different Catholic schools as well... and never stepped foot into a public school until I was elected to the school board.
They didn't know what to make of me...

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
It will eventually collapse, but if enough people come to see the gross deficiencies, utter waste and appalling ineffectiveness, maybe it can happen before collapse.[quote]Yet I fail to see how that's going to work. An ever growing cross section of the public is a direct result of the failure of public education, leaving them far too illiterate and indoctrinated to function rationally. And as time goes by, the size of this group will only grow larger.
[quote]I won’t live to see it, in all likelihood, but it is still a good idea.

No question its a good idea and absolutely needs to occur. Unfortunately, to effect that change, it will require people with intellect and integrity, both qualities missing from an ever increasing segment of the population.

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it will only change, if and when it collapses.

the attendants and castrati of the Forbidden City continued to support the Imperial Emperor for over 500 years despite the excess & expense.

The way I get the story, they continued insulated in their fantasy realm regardless until the entire country collapsed into rebellion.

Some of the public school personnel I've encountered over the years seemed to regard themselves as some form of Imperial Officer. holder.

I read this book when it first came out and had my whole worldview challenged. I loved his open challenge at the end to test his theories.
We have turned public education into a sick form of empire building and we are too lazy to do anything about truly fixing the problem.
I challenge my philosophy of education students to read it and intellectually respond to his challenge. It surprises them to realize that we do not know what we are doing. There is this ingrained trust that public education has it all figured out and this is the best way. No one is allowed a different opinion.
A billboard on the highway by my house reads "school tax monies are for our public schools'. No they are for the education of our children. Period.
Lastly I teach my students that we have only been doing it this way for 100 years and it is still a big social experiment. Charter, private, and online schools are exploding because people want choice and they know something is bad wrong with the system.
Thanks for posting this, I too feel alone in my ideas, it is nice to know there is a kindred spirit.

37 years ago I left college with a degree in education. I spent 3 years as a teacher, and then made the move to leave the field of teaching forever. Not one thing has happened in the last 34 years to indicate that I made the wrong move. Perhaps it should be noted, that I loved teaching, absolutely loved it. Sadly, the system did not allow you to do what was best for the students, and it has gotten worse.
Rod

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Originally posted by sig sailor:
Sadly, the system did not allow you to do what was best for the students, and it has gotten worse.
Rod

And a lot more expensive.

I remember when the Lotto was sold on the grounds it would provide hundreds of millions for education.

Where are they? “Education” swallowed those hindreds of millions up without even a burp.

Yes it is a big scam. The states use the money for education but do so at the reduction of the budget and then use the money elsewhere.

In Virginia, lottery tickets have a tag­line that says “Helping Virginia’s Public Schools” and more than $5 billion in lottery proceeds have gone to public education in the last 24 years, about $450 million annually.

"But, according to the Virginian-Pilot, the money is used by state lawmakers to cover education expenses rather than extra money. And when it is time to cut budgets, education doesn’t get spared.

“That’s been a slow and insidious movement that’s been going on for a few years now,” Kitty Boitnott, president of the Virginia Education Association, was quoted in the Virginian-Pilot, as saying. “It’s a big ruse, and I don’t believe Virginians, in general, are aware of it.”"

Link to Washington Post Article

I wouldn't have a problem with this, with one caveat. There must be some independent, objective, quantifiable way of making sure the students for whom vouchers are issues, are actually getting a sound basic education. Otherwise, as is often the case now, we'd just be flushing the money down the shitter. I wouldn't trust the private schools any more than the public schools (and in some ways even less.) There must be some level of accountability.

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
For years, I have harrassed friends and associates, in real life as well as here on SF, with the idea that public schools have descended to such a pitiful state that we would do well to be done with it, close them, fire the teachers, sell the real estate and at least initially provide for the education of our children with vouchers redeemable by private institutions offering whatever educational programs parents demanded, from basic literacy and trade courses to Rhodes Scholar preparatory programs.

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Originally posted by BBMW:
I wouldn't have a problem with this, with one caveat. There must be some independent, objective, quantifiable way of making sure the students for whom vouchers are issues, are actually getting a sound basic education. Otherwise, as is often the case now, we'd just be flushing the money down the shitter. I wouldn't trust the private schools any more than the public schools (and in some ways even less.) There must be some level of accountability.

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
For years, I have harrassed friends and associates, in real life as well as here on SF, with the idea that public schools have descended to such a pitiful state that we would do well to be done with it, close them, fire the teachers, sell the real estate and at least initially provide for the education of our children with vouchers redeemable by private institutions offering whatever educational programs parents demanded, from basic literacy and trade courses to Rhodes Scholar preparatory programs.

That’s the parents job. It is their responsibility to educate their children, or to see to it. As it is, we shift the apparent responsibility to the village it takes. That is the problem.

There will be abuses, kids fall through the cracks, but the overall result ought to be much much better.

If the standard to select a solution to a problem is perfection, we may as well quit now, and just go back to sipping margaritas and bitchng.

it is painful to watch what has happened and what is happening to our schools.

The problem is that there are a lot of people who look back on their old high school and see the same one they graduated from.
Most schools have changed so radically that we would no longer recognize that school if we went back.
The school district I live in has had a downward spiral for many years now.

The area redistricted and many government housing students now go to this school although it is not the closest one. The school has been putting levees on the ballot every year for the last 10 at least and they always pass. We cannot give that school enough money, they just keep spending and spending and the level of competency coming out of there is not acceptable unless you are in the education system.

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
For years, I have harrassed friends and associates, in real life as well as here on SF, with the idea that public schools have descended to such a pitiful state that we would do well to be done with it, ...

I've been of that opinion for several years, now. Perhaps more than a decade. Maybe even longer.

I sincerely believe the public school system has become so infested with delusional leftists, from the teachers to the very top of their administrative structures, coupled with many (most?) parents treating the system more like a baby-sitting service than an educational system, that it cannot be salvaged.

When I write "sincerely" I mean sincerely. As you write, JALLEN: "...close them, fire the teachers, sell the real estate and at least initially provide for the education of our children with vouchers redeemable by private institutions..."

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There must be some independent, objective, quantifiable way of making sure the students for whom vouchers are issues, are actually getting a sound basic education.

By whom? The government? This is how the mess got started.

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Originally posted by egregore:

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There must be some independent, objective, quantifiable way of making sure the students for whom vouchers are issues, are actually getting a sound basic education.

By whom? The government? This is how the mess got started.

I'm not quite a Libertarian, but I'm pretty close.

My personal political philosophy can be summed up approximately as follows:

1. The government does a shit job at pretty much everything it does. I think there's enough evidence that it's hard to argue against this point.

2. Therefore, the government should do as little as possible. Specifically, the government should only get involved in things that are both a) necessary, and b) impractical without government involvement. Even then, government involvement should be kept as minimal as possible.

What would make some council of bureaucrats in Washington, tasked with evaluating every school in the country (and therefore, unable to devote ANY meaningful attention to any specific school) better able to evaluate the quality of a school than the people who live in the community and, in theory, care about the quality of education their children receive?

There is one big, glaring hole in this argument. What about the people who just don't give a shit about the quality of education their kids receive? Shouldn't someone else be responsible for making sure their kids get a decent education? It's a nice idea. The only problem is, we've tried it for a long, long time, and it hasn't worked. The public schools that serve populations where that sort of attitude is common are terrible, and even if you magically replaced every one of those terrible schools with a great one, most kids that have been taught not to value education or hard work and that get no support and encouragement (and, if necessary, punishment!) at home will not succeed, no matter how good the school is.