quote:

Limited is au natural. Unlimited, they can take anything they want.

YES! Me and a buddy were having this conversation. Let the juicers juice and sit back and watch the carnage.

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Originally posted by myrottiety:

quote:

Limited is au natural. Unlimited, they can take anything they want.

YES! Me and a buddy were having this conversation. Let the juicers juice and sit back and watch the carnage.

No one abuses PEDs like professional body builders and the WWF guys. They also have shorter life expectancy.

To me, obviously steroids and amphetamines but what about coffee? Tylenol? Ibuprofen? I took all of those while an “amateur” athlete. Sometimes way more than recommended dosage. Surprised my liver is healthy.

What about hyper doses of fish oil or turmeric? Are those foods or supplements? The line can get a bit hazy. What about your own blood? Pumping your own blood back in to you is illegal.

Kids love sports and look up to athletes. PEDs improve performance in the short run but they take a big toll on the body in the long run.

Do we want to encourage our children to put abnormal chemicals into their bodies which will harm them and maybe kill them so they can be better at a sport for a relatively short time?

I am amused with the term “cheating” when use in competitive sports. Sports, regardless of the activity, whether track, football, swimming or even motor sports, the object of the game is to win. And to win means to be better than person are challenging, in doing so, you look for the advantage. You push the limits. Way back, in pole vaulting, fiberglass polls were considered “cheating”. Using spikes in track and field for the first time was more than liking considered not fair. The first swimmer to use the dolphin kick revolutionized the sport and they had to change the rules. Cheating? Speedo full body suit, cheating? What about training at altitude? Not every athlete can afford to live in Park City UT and train at 8000 feet. Is that cheating?

Every competitor is looking for that “unfair advantage”. (to quote Mark Donohue) You don’t like the reality of sports, coach T-ball.

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Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
I am amused with the term “cheating” ...

Every competitor is looking for that “unfair advantage”. (to quote Mark Donohue) You don’t like the reality of sports, coach T-ball.

Huh? Can I stick my leg out and trip competitors?
There is always a line somewhere.

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Originally posted by Crom:
Huh? Can I stick my leg out and trip competitors?
There is always a line somewhere.

Never ran HS cross country did you.

Watch College or NFL football, lots of shirts are being pulled by the D when covering receivers. Cheating?

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Originally posted by Southflorida-law:

Never ran HS cross country did you.

Watch College or NFL football, lots of shirts are being pulled by the D when covering receivers. Cheating?

Actually, I have spent quite a bit of time in competitive bike racing, and I have seen a lot of cheating, including deliberately knocking other people down. I have raced against people who were Tour de France competitors, and they were later exposed as dopers. It was always called "cheating".

Thanks for all the comments.

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Originally posted by zipriderson:
Think of taking drugs as similar to being able to put jet engines on your bicycle in competition.

To respond to the above, a jet engine on a bicycle is an extreme example, but in truth the same sort of thing in principle happens all the time. In the late 1980s so-called “mountain” bikes were just appearing. I bought a relatively early one in Virginia about 1985. The sport has grown tremendously since then and it’s a popular sport and competition in the area where I live now. The man who won this year’s 100 mile race on much rough terrain that rises to over 12,000 feet elevation would no doubt have done better than most race entrants if he’d been forced to ride my bike, but would he have won? Very unlikely.

How about the shooting sports? I’ve read extensively about long range rifle competitions in the late 1800s and early twentieth century. If I could travel back in time with just the less-than-absolutely-top-tier equipment and mediocre skills I have, I could probably have beaten all the top shooters of that era. As for level fields, how many young archers have parents with the money (or inclination) to spend $40+(!) for one arrow, much less to buy the best bows and other gear? We can argue whether most competitors would ever need the best gear to reach their maximum potential, but level fields? Hardly.

The argument about danger to children and others who would be tempted to dope themselves to try to become competitive before they understand the risks is valid, but it seems to me that at some point individuals will make their own decisions. If dope testing was maintained, it would help, but admittedly would not eliminate the risk. Unfortunately, though, that is the situation today as well. What it boils down to is whether legitimizing something in some situations, for example, establishing unlimited categories, increases the likelihood of illegitimate activity in others. The same question is continually asked about such things as gun ownership.

Another thing to consider about the possible dangers of doping is that there are other real and current dangers of athletic activities. I lost track long ago of the number of former military personnel who developed life long disabilities from the physical demands of their training. It’s said that merely completing the Army Ranger course reduces life expectancy by a couple of years. Whether that’s true or might be made up for by continuing to maintain ones fitness after retirement I can’t say, but I do know any number of people personally who developed serious joint problems as a result of what they did decades earlier. And that doesn’t even include the more cryptic issues that are only now beginning to be explored such as brain damage resulting from football or soccer. I know one young man who couldn’t join the Marines due to a high school football injury: Really? Doing well in high school football is more important than being able to pursue a career in the armed forces?

To reiterate, though, I do appreciate the discussion that has given me things to think about.

For those interested: there is a netflix documentary about a high-level amateur bicycle racer who was always clean, but decided to dope heavily for a year, under medical supervision, just to see what it would do (and to make a documentary about it.)
All his laboratory numbers increased dramatically. But when he actually competed in his targeted "peaking" race, he did worse than he had done in the prior year. Yeah, luck comes into it too.
It is called "Icarus". But the documentary degenerates into a story of how he assisted getting his doping-expert-doctor out of Russia, to America!

^^^

Like in baseball. Steroids will help you hit the ball harder and farther but no drug will help you hit the ball better and more often.

However, some drugs will help you heal faster and add years to your career. That’s a huge advantage.

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Originally posted by sigfreund:
As for level fields, how many young archers have parents with the money (or inclination) to spend $40+(!) for one arrow, much less to buy the best bows and other gear? We can argue whether most competitors would ever need the best gear to reach their maximum potential, but level fields? Hardly.

I used to be able to shoot a 2" group out to 60 yards with cheap aluminum XX75 arrows out of a cheap shit Browning compound that I bought in 1984. And, I was shooting instinctively (no sights or even a peep sight). Just bring it up and shoot...with fingers and a leather pad.

Nowadays I have a high speed $1000 Mathews with $40 carbon fiber arrows, peep sight, illuminated pins, and a release.

Guess what? I'm not any better now than I was back then.

Kind of pisses me off, too.

Doping worked for the East Germans. Of course, the long term consequences were ignored. As long as they won Olympic events East Germans were happy.

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
Many of us of a certain age were brought up to believe in “playing by the rules.” The rules were published in advance so everyone had a chance to be informed.

These rules covered nearly everything and were often gradually added to, to cover situations not plainly covered previously. Often these rules were for uniformity, or arose from notions of fair play, hopefully to give everyone a chance to win.

No matter what the rules were, there were folks who didn’t want to be limited by these rules, or felt they were entitled to an exemption especially if they were prominent players. Pete Rose in baseball, Lance Armstrong in bicycle racing,to name a couple.

It's not just doping. Last night Joe Buck was clearly disgusted that the Brewers called for and received confirmation that Manny Machado didn't play by the rules when he tried to break up a double play, while sliding into 2nd base.

He clearly put his hand out and grabbed the leg of the player making the throw to first.

Mr. Machado was barking and shaking his head, and the announcers were saying things like, "Well the rule states he can't and apparently, unfortunately the umps agree."

My ten year old is sitting right next to me shaking his head. "Why doesn't their coach tell him to stop?! It's the second time he's tried to do that in this game!"

quote:

Originally posted by Crom:
For those interested: there is a netflix documentary about a high-level amateur bicycle racer who was always clean, but decided to dope heavily for a year, under medical supervision, just to see what it would do (and to make a documentary about it.)
All his laboratory numbers increased dramatically. But when he actually competed in his targeted "peaking" race, he did worse than he had done in the prior year. Yeah, luck comes into it too.
It is called "Icarus". But the documentary degenerates into a story of how he assisted getting his doping-expert-doctor out of Russia, to America!

He won an Oscar for this film. I heard him speak in Denver a few weeks ago. A compelling story for sure. He got a Russian whistle blower to tell the story. That guy is now in US protective custody or whatever its called.

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Originally posted by PD:

quote:

Originally posted by myrottiety:

quote:

Limited is au natural. Unlimited, they can take anything they want.

YES! Me and a buddy were having this conversation. Let the juicers juice and sit back and watch the carnage.

No one abuses PEDs like professional body builders and the WWF guys. They also have shorter life expectancy.

And at this point, I'm sure they know it going in.

The question here isn't should cheating be allowed. The question is, what should the rules be?

The rules in all sports are somewhat arbitrary. Look at what's happening to football. Because of the CTE thing, they're neutering the game. Should they? Or should they go back to the old rules, and simply make the players sign a waiver when they enter the league that they understand that playing the game may cause significant adverse health consequences, and then they have to decide what they want to do.

quote:

Originally posted by Crom:

quote:

Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
I am amused with the term “cheating” ...

Every competitor is looking for that “unfair advantage”. (to quote Mark Donohue) You don’t like the reality of sports, coach T-ball.

Huh? Can I stick my leg out and trip competitors?
There is always a line somewhere.

For the same reason we wouldn't allow an AI enhanced human to compete in a game of Mathematics against a regular human, or a computer to compete against elementary school kids in the Spelling Bee, or a runner with Bionic legs to compete against Usain Bolt or Flo Jo, or the reasons humans don't race horses on foot, because the very point of many of these games is one of Human Excellence, Human Achievement, including the Agony of Defeat...

Granted, I wouldn't mind if there were separate categories/organizations for athletes who use steroids or blood doping or Bionics and such, but it should be it's own thing, otherwise the normal/unmodified people will never win and some would feel forced to modify to keep up, and that's already happening, which distracts from the game itself. I'm OK with Robot Baseball, where every hit is a 1000yd homer, but as I said, it needs to be separate.

Robotics. Only a matter of time until a sprinter with robotic legs appears. Transgender is already cheating.

I think it should be expected and welcomed. I see it as completely natural. You eat nutritious food to give your body the nutrients it needs to work at peak efficiency. I see no difference whatsoever between that and giving your body specific substances it can use to perform better. We simply have an ever evolving knowledge of how the body works, and are better able to target the specific functions we want to perform better.

You could probably live for a long time on a diet of Slim Jims and powdered sugar, but we know that to function well there are better things for us to put in our bodies. It's exactly the same with athletic performance, there are lots of things that will help the body perform those tasks better, and the line that bans certain substances but not others is completely arbitrary and silly.