My friend has invited me and the kids for a flight this weekend over the Sierras. Should be airborne for 3 hours.

What’s etiquette for something like this? Do I offer to pay for gas? If so, how much should I offer? What’s the burn rate on a Cessna or Mooney? I don’t want to insult him with a lame offer to pay for fuel.

When we’d go to the lake with my brother, I always offered to top off the tanks in the boat and truck. Way cheaper than owning both.

If I invite someone to take a ride on our boat I don't expect anything as they are my guest. In your example I would probably offer to buy lunch or dinner.

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When we’d go to the lake with my brother, I always offered to top off the tanks in the boat and truck. Way cheaper than owning both.

Yep.
He may refuse, but it's always nice to offer. Let him know that you are serious. Pull out your credit card when he fuels.

It's illegal for him to accept any type of compensation for a flight. The FAA take a very VERY dim view of it, because it crosses the line into commercial services. You are allowed to 'share expense' but you have to be careful to not cross the 50 percent line as you approach the "compensation" part of the feds rules.

As a general rule, when a pilot invites you on a flight, you are not expected to pay for anything. Most times they are just looking for an excuse to go fly. Unless you have previously discussed it, I wouldn't worry about it. If you want to show appreciation you can offer to pay up to half the gas, but I doubt he would take you up on it. Maybe buy lunch on the way home or something. But beware, even gifts(wine) or lunch count in their assessment of "sharing expenses". 51 percent counts as compensation.

Burn rates on mooney's are cessnas are very different so it would be hard to give an exact figure, but probably around 10-15 gallons per hour depending on time to reach altitude.

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Originally posted by jeffxjet:
It's illegal for him to accept any type of compensation for a flight. The FAA take a very VERY dim view of it, because it crosses the line into commercial services. You are allowed to 'share expense' but you have to be careful to not cross the 50 percent line as you approach the "compensation" part of the feds rules.

I think you could buy all the fuel and still not cross the 50% of total cost of operation threshold.

Post some pictures!

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Originally posted by MNSIG:

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Originally posted by jeffxjet:
It's illegal for him to accept any type of compensation for a flight. The FAA take a very VERY dim view of it, because it crosses the line into commercial services. You are allowed to 'share expense' but you have to be careful to not cross the 50 percent line as you approach the "compensation" part of the feds rules.

I think you could buy all the fuel and still not cross the 50% of total cost of operation threshold.

The feds don't consider cost of operation, that why i used the word "expenses". You are allowed to "share" (their words meaning up to 50 percent of the operating expenses(fuel/oil and engine reserves). Cost of the airplane or hangar or anything else is off the table. You can share expenses for that particular flight, not the cost of materials.

Addressing the cost of operation part you start getting into fractional or shared ownership, and that has it's own set of laws and regulations.

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Originally posted by Krazeehorse:
If I invite someone to take a ride on our boat I don't expect anything as they are my guest. In your example I would probably offer to buy lunch or dinner.

This has always been my approach as well and happily so. Realize a plane may burn more/more expensive fuel but relatively speaking not that much I bet. I've been offered before but politely decline.

If you were landing somewhere I'd also offer to pick up the tab for Uber, etc. but doesn't sound like that's part of this trip.

Enjoy, sounds like a good friend and great trip for the kids!

Make sure the kids use the bathroom immediately before the flight!

Thanks for the responses and suggestions.

I don’t think we’ll get sideways with FAA regs. This is strictly a fun flight and my guess it’s an excuse for him to fly. His family is out of state for a few weeks so he’s bored. I don’t think he’ll accept any offers to pay, but I’ll be prepared and willing.

I’ll take pics and post them. Let’s hope an ugly forest fire doesn’t flare up anytime soon!

Bring a couple of gallon ziplock bags for everyone to puke in. Things can get bumpy over the mountains...

In terms of gift, I'd give him a bottle or something nice after the flight - or take him to dinner, or something along those lines.

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Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Bring a couple of gallon ziplock bags for everyone to puke in. Things can get bumpy over the mountains...

In terms of gift, I'd give him a bottle or something nice after the flight - or take him to dinner, or something along those lines.

+1 to this whole suggestion.

There's a decent chance someone will get sick, and there aren't a whole lot of options when you are at altitude. Having some of those bags along could save the trip, and with ziplocs you can seal it up so hopefully you don't have to smell it for the duration of the flight.

He probably won't accept any money, but a low dollar tasteful thank you gift would be appreciated, and there's no way that could foul him up with the FAA.

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Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffxjet:

It's illegal for him to accept any type of compensation for a flight. The FAA take a very VERY dim view of it, because it crosses the line into commercial services. You are allowed to 'share expense' but you have to be careful to not cross the 50 percent line as you approach the "compensation" part of the feds rules.

I think you could buy all the fuel and still not cross the 50% of total cost of operation threshold.

Nope, you may not buy all the fuel; the regs are very specific about this. Direct operating costs (fuel, landing fees, etc.) may be shared equally by all occupied seats. The pilot must pay his (her) equal share. No "free ride" for the pilot, else this would be looked at as compensation, which is absolutely against regs for a flight of this type.

If it is a rented airplane, the rental costs may be shared, but again, the pilot must pay an equal share.

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Originally posted by Russ59:
Thanks for the responses and suggestions.

I don’t think we’ll get sideways with FAA regs. This is strictly a fun flight and my guess it’s an excuse for him to fly. His family is out of state for a few weeks so he’s bored. I don’t think he’ll accept any offers to pay, but I’ll be prepared and willing.

I’ll take pics and post them. Let’s hope an ugly forest fire doesn’t flare up anytime soon!

Most likely not, I just wanted make sure you were aware that you can't "just pay for the gas" or "top it off". It's very highly regulated and while the possibility of getting caught are very slim, it's not an area you wanna mess around with. It could lead to a long legal mess for your friend. You can share equally, but not more.

I have a buddy who takes me out fishing pretty regularly. He isn't interested in gas money, but I pick up the check for lunch or dinner after. I also bring breakfast - donuts or breakfast tacos.

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Originally posted by V-Tail:Nope, you may not buy all the fuel; the regs are very specific about this. Direct operating costs (fuel, landing fees, etc.) may be shared equally by all occupied seats. The pilot must pay his (her) equal share. No "free ride" for the pilot, else this would be looked at as compensation, which is absolutely against regs for a flight of this type.

If it is a rented airplane, the rental costs may be shared, but again, the pilot must pay an equal share.

Got it. I was thinking in terms of real world cost to own/operate the plane, but I'm 100% confident your understanding of the regulations is the correct answer.

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Originally posted by MNSIG:

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Originally posted by V-Tail:Nope, you may not buy all the fuel; the regs are very specific about this. Direct operating costs (fuel, landing fees, etc.) may be shared equally by all occupied seats. The pilot must pay his (her) equal share. No "free ride" for the pilot, else this would be looked at as compensation, which is absolutely against regs for a flight of this type.

If it is a rented airplane, the rental costs may be shared, but again, the pilot must pay an equal share.

Got it. I was thinking in terms of real world cost to own/operate the plane, but I'm 100% confident your understanding of the regulations is the correct answer.

Yeah, there is a huge gap between what we think of as common sense, and what the regs allow. There is a strict definition of "direct operating cost" that does not take into account any of the real costs, things like reserves for insurance, hangar costs, maintenance reserves, engine replacement, etc.

Anything beyond the FAA's definition of direct operating costs like strict fuel sharing, rental fees, landing fees, is viewed by the Feds as compensation for the pilot, and would be contrary to regs if the flight is conducted under Part 91 of the regs, which covers non-revenue flights like pleasure, etc.

Amazing how a simple act of courtesy can run into a field of landmines in government bloatocracy and possible legal issues.

I get they want a definitive line between commercial and private pilots but gheez, your buddy popping for $500 worth of gas on a fun cruise to nowhere that could end up in a federal legal mess, had no Idea...

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Originally posted by HRK:

Amazing how a simple act of courtesy can run into a field of landmines in government bloatocracy and possible legal issues.

I get they want a definitive line between commercial and private pilots but gheez, your buddy popping for $500 worth of gas on a fun cruise to nowhere that could end up in a federal legal mess, had no Idea...

There is actually a semblance of reason behind this.

The regs are strict in order to clamp down on "bootleg charter," in which pilots who might not be qualified, fly for compensation in airplanes that might not meet all maintenance requirements, without approved operations manuals.

There is a line in the sand that enforces strict separation between flights that are for pleasure, personal transportation, etc., vs. a pilot soliciting or even accepting compensation for a flight.

Charter, air taxi, and so on are regulated by Part 135 of the regs. Flights that try to skirt this section are known, tongue in cheek, as "Part 134.5."

Ain't nothing wrong with one's buddy popping for gas money, as long as the pilot also puts his / her equal share into the pot. The gas fund can be divided by the number of occupied seats, so if there are three or four on board, the pilot does not need to put up 50%.

I can’t touch the regulatory aspect of your specific question. But I do have 40 yrs experience with a particular friend who has extended generosity to me at levels that I am unable to repay.

I’d be lying if I stated that I don’t periodically fret about the unsolvable imbalance.

My best solution is to trust that he wouldn’t offer the gift if he didn’t want to and to always maintain a sense of humility & gratitude. And I purposely decline a few invitations here and there to discipline myself against entitlement towards his resources.

The best gift a man can give another is loyalty and love. I also like the suggested idea of dinner, etc. Just try to avoid the notion of quid pro quo. It’s not a business arrangement; he doesn’t expect that.

Good luck and have fun.