I have always liked Clint's point of view and appreciated the wisdom he shares.




Link to original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCOGhiaW5SA

Going to disagree, yes in a gun fight you might shoot faster out of panics sake, but if you don't have the experience in the sight focus required to make the hits at that speed your shots are going to go everywhere.

Instead you need to practice actually going faster. And being able to get the hits you need at that speed. And without a shot timer, it is impossible to know where you are standing, unless you have a turning target system (who how many of us have access to one of those on our everyday range?).

Bat Masterson was a been there, done that frontier type who survived a number of shootings before becoming a sportswriter and this has been attributed to him:
When asked what the secret to gun fighting was, Masterson said, "hurry, but take your time".
I don't know if he actually said that, but it seems like sound advice.

In CQB school the mantra was "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast".

I still strive to train that way today.

quote:

Originally posted by Gibb:
In CQB school the mantra was "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast".

I still strive to train that way today.

I hate that phrase, because it has lost all meaning IMO. Because if slow = smooth and smooth = fast then slow = smooth = fast or simplified slow = fast. In reality slow is slow, smooth is smooth, and fast is fast. There is no direct relationships between the three.

Fast may appear smooth to someone not accustomed to watching a faster shooter, but fast is almost always jerky because you learn where you can go balls to wall, and where you have to go slow.

And the only way to learn that is with a shot timer forcing yourself to go faster and faster. For example you don't get a sub-second draw with a 7 yard A zone hit, by standing there practicing 1.5 second draws. No you get it by practicing 0.7 second draws only caring that the shot hits the target, so when you slow down to see your sights it is only a 0.9 second draw.

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by Gibb:
In CQB school the mantra was "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast".

I still strive to train that way today.

I hate that phrase, because it has lost all meaning IMO. Because if slow = smooth and smooth = fast then slow = smooth = fast or simplified slow = fast. In reality slow is slow, smooth is smooth, and fast is fast. There is no direct relationships between the three.

Fast may appear smooth to someone not accustomed to watching a faster shooter, but fast is almost always jerky because you learn where you can go balls to wall, and where you have to go slow.

And the only way to learn that is with a shot timer forcing yourself to go faster and faster. For example you don't get a sub-second draw with a 7 yard A zone hit, by standing there practicing 1.5 second draws. No you get it by practicing 0.7 second draws only caring that the shot hits the target, so when you slow down to see your sights it is only a 0.9 second draw.

Agreed on both points. Smooth is fast mantra kind of lost it's way.

I can't remember where I heard regarding a question about shooting faster. The answer was "You already know how to shoot slow." Basically stating you need to shoot fast and learn to get hits or something like that.

Anyways, that is how I look at now. For example, at my fastest, the fastest I can even move I can get 70% hits. Slow it down .05 seconds and I am at 100%, you learn your speed and a timer for par times is needed.

Like the man said.. "Slow and steady wins the race, unless it's a real race."

Seems to me he is saying learn to shoot well and you will, even when it has to be fast.

The old adage about you can't miss fast enough to win comes to mind.

quote:

Originally posted by Poacher:
Seems to me he is saying learn to shoot well and you will, even when it has to be fast.

Except he totally neglects how you become fast. It doesn't just happen, just like most aspects of becoming a good shooter, it requires directed practice.

quote:

The old adage about you can't miss fast enough to win comes to mind.

No, but you can shoot slow enough to lose.

My buddy that does that super secret stuff with that maritime group that likes to make movies and write books about themselves...he always tells me:

"You don't have to shoot first, just be the first to shoot straight".

So far, it's served him well enough to survive several deployments.

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by Poacher:
Seems to me he is saying learn to shoot well and you will, even when it has to be fast.

Except he totally neglects how you become fast. It doesn't just happen, just like most aspects of becoming a good shooter, it requires directed practice.

quote:

The old adage about you can't miss fast enough to win comes to mind.

No, but you can shoot slow enough to lose.

He does state you will be fast when you need to be. And yes, you need to train to be good. I figured that was evident.

quote:

Originally posted by Poacher:
He does state you will be fast when you need to be.

Except that is bullshit. Training with the expectation that you will become fast is like the dude at the range that can barely hit the target who expects he will rise to the occasion and make that 25 yard hostage shot.

People that go faster than the ability level that they trained at miss, miss, andddd, miss. Because they haven't learned the things required to go fast like acceptable sight pictures, sight focus levels, how to work the trigger quickly, how to draw quickly without screwing it up, etc etc.

I respect Clint, he is an instructor with many many years experience. That has survived the boom and bust of the industry. But IMO here he is 100% wrong, and I think most really fast shooters will agree with me, because we know what it took to reach that level and how your shooting falls apart until things click for each speed goal.

quote:

Originally posted by Poacher:
Seems to me he is saying learn to shoot well and you will, even when it has to be fast.

The old adage about you can't miss fast enough to win comes to mind.

Exactly. What the old saw "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" really means is that good fundamentals build good habits. Which is absolutely true. Then you can speed those up or slow them down or whatever you want, but you'll be doing it right.

Shitty fundamentals, even really really fast, are still shit. If you don't have the baseline fundamentals and mechanics down, speeding it up will only make you miss faster.

Some people understand it, some don't.

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:

quote:

Originally posted by Poacher:
Seems to me he is saying learn to shoot well and you will, even when it has to be fast.

The old adage about you can't miss fast enough to win comes to mind.

Exactly. What the old saw "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" really means is that good fundamentals build good habits. Which is absolutely true. Then you can speed those up or slow them down or whatever you want, but you'll be doing it right.

Shitty fundamentals, even really really fast, are still shit. If you don't have the baseline fundamentals and mechanics down, speeding it up will only make you miss faster.

Some people understand it, some don't.

What comes into question here is learning the fundamentals. This is where I believe he is wrong. If you leave time out of the equation you are missing a big part of the picture.

No one in this thread has thus far advocated a spray and pray mentality.

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:But IMO here he is 100% wrong, and I think most really fast shooters will agree with me, because we know what it took to reach that level and how your shooting falls apart until things click for each speed goal.

I'm really interested to know what your (or others') process was for building speed. Do you keep cutting time down until you start to miss? Shoot fast until you start to hit?

I've always been pretty accurate, but not as fast as I'd like.

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:But IMO here he is 100% wrong, and I think most really fast shooters will agree with me, because we know what it took to reach that level and how your shooting falls apart until things click for each speed goal.

I'm really interested to know what your (or others') process was for building speed. Do you keep cutting time down until you start to miss? Shoot fast until you start to hit?

I've always been pretty accurate, but not as fast as I'd like.

The first work on this in dry fire before you go to live fire, but the process is the same for both.

While you are working on speed you don't worry about hits. As long as it hits the target you are fine.

You find your baseline, and you set a par time 0.1 - 0.2 seconds lower. And you push yourself until you start hitting the par time consistently. You are getting your body used to operating the gun at that speed. And then you push the par time lower. Finally you scale it back, give yourself an extra 0.2-0.5 seconds to see your sights and ensure the hit.

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Originally posted by PPGMD:As long as it hits the target you are fine.

What size targets and distance do you suggest?

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:As long as it hits the target you are fine.

What size targets and distance do you suggest?

USPSA, and 5 yards.

You can't work on speed and accuracy in the same drill. But you shouldn't neglect accuracy within the practice session. So walk back to 25 yards at least once during the session.

Anyways the Steve Anderson or the Ben Stoeger books are a good guides for this. Steve's book have par times for open shooters, Ben's are setup for iron sight shooters.

Mega love and respect for Clint. I've been through a couple of his classes and he is world class.

But.

I do not agree with some of his conclusions. Which is cool. He says over and over again "In my opinion", and it is his opinion and COMPLETELY valid. I just disagree with it in this instance. You can disagree with an opinion, when it is stated as such, but you can't fault him for it.

You don't just get faster when the need arises. Well, you can, but the results aren't positive.

Anyone that thinks this is valid, I want you to try this. Practice at one speed. Then go to any given IDPA match and try going 10 percent faster. Report back. I'm going to go ahead and tell you that your report isn't going to be very positive, especially on anything that requires movement. And guess what? No one is even shooting at you.

You don't just magically become faster, and maintain accuracy, when you need it most. It is about like the idea that I will run a six minute mile when I need it most, when I can't currently run a 15 minute mile now. It is just not how the body works. You become fast by......wait for it....going fast.

He's absolutely right on "shoot good". Fast means absolutely nothing if it isn't good. But, as he has never seen a timer in a gunfight, I have never heard a single gunfight survivor that said, "You know, I really wish I could have made that go down slower, and shot just a little crappy-er."

Again, Clint is an icon to me, and on my highly recommended to take a class from list. I just don't particularly agree with him here.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
It is about like the idea that I will run a six minute mile when I need it most, when I can't currently run a 15 minute mile now. It is just not how the body works. You become fast by......wait for it....going fast.

Nice analogy. You will be quoted.