Question for electricians re: GFI outlet

January 09, 2023, 07:41 AM

I don’t know how long it takes to trip the GFI because up until now I’ve only noticed it periodically. I’m watching it now, reset it yesterday morning, and it hasn’t tripped after 24 hours. The golden rod in the safe is static, so it certainly seems to me that if it is defective it would trip the GFI more often. How could it just randomly leak current but not all the time?

It seems that nothing else is being fed by this GFI, as everything else works that I’m aware of. I guess I can’t rule out an outside receptacle or some line that isn’t being used. When I pull it to replace it I will know if it is feeding anything else. It has been tripped for unknown periods of time, and nothing else stopped working. It’s low on a back wall of built in shelves, and is old with no light to indicate it has tripped, so I have to get on my knees and look closely to find out.

The other outlets in the bathroom are GFI outlets which seem to be working. So these are protected regardless of the one in the closet, right?

So if I pull it and nothing is being fed past it, is there any reason to go back with a GFI? I think my plan is to buy a regular and a GFI, and if it does have lines feeding out use the new GFI, and if not, put the regular outlet in. Anything wrong with that?

January 09, 2023, 07:54 AM

Flash-LB

quote:
Originally posted by honestlou:
I don’t know how long it takes to trip the GFI because up until now I’ve only noticed it periodically. I’m watching it now, reset it yesterday morning, and it hasn’t tripped after 24 hours. The golden rod in the safe is static, so it certainly seems to me that if it is defective it would trip the GFI more often. How could it just randomly leak current but not all the time?

The way it could happen is that it might be right on the edge of tripping and a slight increase in voltage at the mains might push it over the edge.

Example:

Let's say it takes 5mA to trip it. Then let's say it's actually crawing 4.9mA.

Perhaps the voltage rises a few percent, then the leakage will also increase slightly to 5mA and it trips.

It's possible.

January 09, 2023, 08:05 AM

nhracecraft

^^^Actually the opposite would be true...

Per Ohms Law, Current in a electrical circuit is calculated by dividing the Voltage by the Resistance. In other words, the Current is directly proportional to the Voltage and inversely proportional to the Resistance. In this case if you're concerned with Current, I=v/r, and as the Resistance is constant, if the Voltage were to increase, the Current would be lower, NOT higher.

January 09, 2023, 09:44 AM

Flash-LB

quote:
Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^^Actually the opposite would be true...

Per Ohms Law, Current in a electrical circuit is calculated by dividing the Voltage by the Resistance. In other words, the Current is directly proportional to the Voltage and inversely proportional to the Resistance. In this case if you're concerned with Current, I=v/r, and as the Resistance is constant, if the Voltage were to increase, the Current would be lower, NOT higher.

Absolutely correct. I shouldn't post when half awake.

January 09, 2023, 09:57 AM

Some Shot

quote:
Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^^Actually the opposite would be true...

Per Ohms Law, Current in a electrical circuit is calculated by dividing the Voltage by the Resistance. In other words, the Current is directly proportional to the Voltage and inversely proportional to the Resistance. In this case if you're concerned with Current, I=v/r, and as the Resistance is constant, if the Voltage were to increase, the Current would be lower, NOT higher.

Seems bass-ackwards to me.

Won't effect my pay either way.

January 09, 2023, 10:10 AM

radioman

quote:
In this case if you're concerned with Current, I=v/r, and as the Resistance is constant, if the Voltage were to increase, the Current would be lower, NOT higher.

No, in this equation with constant R, if V increases, then I also increases.

January 09, 2023, 10:15 AM

nhracecraft

Hold on a second...That makes no sense! I shouldn't post when half awake either! Now I'm confused...

In a given circuit, if the Voltage drops, shouldn't the Current drawn by the load increase? I guess I'm thinking of Power in this relationship, where I=P/V

January 09, 2023, 10:26 AM

HRK

quote:
Originally posted by honestlou:
I don’t know how long it takes to trip the GFI because up until now I’ve only noticed it periodically. I’m watching it now, reset it yesterday morning, and it hasn’t tripped after 24 hours. The golden rod in the safe is static, so it certainly seems to me that if it is defective it would trip the GFI more often. How could it just randomly leak current but not all the time?

Anything is possible from a defective GFCI outlet to a loose wire or the goldenrod itself.

quote:
It seems that nothing else is being fed by this GFI, as everything else works that I’m aware of. I guess I can’t rule out an outside receptacle or some line that isn’t being used. When I pull it to replace it I will know if it is feeding anything else. It has been tripped for unknown periods of time, and nothing else stopped working. It’s low on a back wall of built in shelves, and is old with no light to indicate it has tripped, so I have to get on my knees and look closely to find out.

It may not be, the GFCI in our master bath also protects the front porch outlet, when we have Christmas lights out and it rains if the lights are on it can trip that outlet, so it may be protecting other outlets elsewhere in the house.

quote:
The other outlets in the bathroom are GFI outlets which seem to be working. So these are protected regardless of the one in the closet, right?'

Well if you trip those other GFCI outlets, then test each outlet in the bath you will know.

quote:
So if I pull it and nothing is being fed past it, is there any reason to go back with a GFI? I think my plan is to buy a regular and a GFI, and if it does have lines feeding out use the new GFI, and if not, put the regular outlet in. Anything wrong with that?

Only if it has another outlet somewhere that it's protecting that you're not aware of, such as ours protecting an outdoor plug, we would never have known it until it rained on our christmas lights one year. You could pop the GFCI into the off position and then check all the plugs around the house to see if any are dead, then reset and check the same plug to see if it's now live...

January 09, 2023, 10:57 AM

straightshooter01

quote:
So if I pull it and nothing is being fed past it, is there any reason to go back with a GFI? I think my plan is to buy a regular and a GFI, and if it does have lines feeding out use the new GFI, and if not, put the regular outlet in. Anything wrong with that?

Correct. The fastest, easiest, and most foolproof way to determine what that GFI is protecting is to pull the plug and see if anything is wired downstream from it. If there is nothing wired downstream (from the back of the plug) and you have nothing that you want to protect in the closet then you certainly could just replace the plug with a non-protected plug.

January 09, 2023, 10:58 AM

radioman

So I'm assuming that the Golden Rod has no frayed or cracked insulation on the cord, no pinches, or other obvious damage, where a small current could leak from the unit to ground? Correct?

in particular near the hole where the cord enters the safe.

January 09, 2023, 11:02 AM

radioman

quote:
Originally posted by nhracecraft:
Hold on a second...That makes no sense! I shouldn't post when half awake either! Now I'm confused...

In a given circuit, if the Voltage drops, shouldn't the Current drawn by the load increase? I guess I'm thinking of Power in this relationship, where I=P/V

For a linear circuit like just a resistor as a load, if voltage increases, then the current increases.

There are some circuits where constant power is needed, where the current would decrease if voltage is increased, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion.

January 09, 2023, 11:08 AM

honestlou

quote:
Originally posted by radioman:
So I'm assuming that the Golden Rod has no frayed or cracked insulation on the cord, no pinches, or other obvious damage, where a small current could leak from the unit to ground? Correct?

in particular near the hole where the cord enters the safe.

That is correct. It’s a Liberty safe and I installed the “power outlet kit”, which mounts on the back wall of the safe. It basically has pass through for electrical, usb, and Ethernet. The golden rod is plugged into the inside, and a short extension cord feeds the outside from the outlet in question.

January 09, 2023, 12:21 PM

Skins2881

quote:
Originally posted by honestlou:
I don’t know how long it takes to trip the GFI because up until now I’ve only noticed it periodically. I’m watching it now, reset it yesterday morning, and it hasn’t tripped after 24 hours. The golden rod in the safe is static, so it certainly seems to me that if it is defective it would trip the GFI more often. How could it just randomly leak current but not all the time?

It seems that nothing else is being fed by this GFI, as everything else works that I’m aware of. I guess I can’t rule out an outside receptacle or some line that isn’t being used. When I pull it to replace it I will know if it is feeding anything else. It has been tripped for unknown periods of time, and nothing else stopped working. It’s low on a back wall of built in shelves, and is old with no light to indicate it has tripped, so I have to get on my knees and look closely to find out.

The other outlets in the bathroom are GFI outlets which seem to be working. So these are protected regardless of the one in the closet, right?

So if I pull it and nothing is being fed past it, is there any reason to go back with a GFI? I think my plan is to buy a regular and a GFI, and if it does have lines feeding out use the new GFI, and if not, put the regular outlet in. Anything wrong with that?

Did you trip the GFI and check shower light/fan if there is one(s) installed over shower/tub are still working? The other thing that GFI may feed is attic outlets. Same test, trip GFI and check for power at attic outlets.