I'm about 25 hours into my PPL training. Hope to have it finished by this summer.

Expecting to fly at least 100 hours a year. I live in North Central Montana and will take probably at least 3 trips a year back home to West TN, roughly 1200 NM one way. The rest of the time will be flying around Montana getting $100 hamburgers and whatnot.

I've narrowed my search down to I think 3 possible models. Wanted to get your thoughts if anybody has any personal experiences.

1: Beechcraft 24R Sierra
2: Beechcraft 35 V-tail Bonanza
3: Piper Arrow 180

1200 miles is a long way so I will admit that speed and fuel efficiency are priorities for me and it seems that these models can cruise 135+ knots on roughly 10 gallons an hour. Also will need to be IFR certified as I plan on picking up my IFR cert in the not to distant future.

Anybody have any advice on financing? Good experiences with companies you've used in the past? Will probably finance no more than 50%.

What about finding someone to do a pre-buy? How should I tackle that?

Wished I had done this 5 or so years ago. The aircraft market is a bit crazy right now. I guess I had the same idea as everybody else.

Thanks!

ETA: I'm a bit weary of the Bonanza because of the magnesium corrosion issue. I don't understand why someone hasn't figured out carbon fiber replacements yet or something. Any thoughts?

Are you an AOPA Member? Lot's of resources there.

I flew an Arrow for a lot of years. Loved the AC. You'll need a good AE&P to check out whatever you are looking at.

No experience with those 3. Almost all my hours are in Cessna planes (150, 152, 172, 182).

Vtail will surely be along on the Bonanza.

Guessing you'll need additional endorsement(s) for those, over a basic PPL (high performance, complex, etc)

V35's are crazy expensive now; I've been looking for a 65 or later for 6+ months. I have almost 5,000 hrs TT, most in complex high performance aircraft. 150 hours of B56TC Baron time, but zero Bonanza time. My insurance will be $4k/yr for the first year!! Ruddervators are unavailable - and many V-tails are being parted out since there are zero magnesium ruddervators. Zero.

last October I almost made a deal on a beautiful Billings based V35, but a week before we closed the airline pilot owner and his wife were killed in a landing accident in the '65 V35S.

We're both in MT; e-mail me and we can talk on the phone if you'd like. The Piper is your best low-time bet, but nothing flies like a Beech. You might look into E/F33 Debs

I haven’t flown in too many years so can’t answer specifically.

However, when I was looking and daydreaming about a plane last year, old Mooneys with the manual gear (bombproof) could be had for a very reasonable price.

I got a quote for insurance for a Mooney. $6,200 with stipulations about additional instruction that I'm not sure my CFI could have helped with.

quote:

Originally posted by aileron:

last October I almost made a deal on a beautiful Billings based V35, but a week before we closed the airline pilot owner and his wife were killed in a landing accident in the '65 V35S.

Small world, I knew the owners of that plane, they were close friends of my dad's

quote:

Originally posted by aileron:

V35's are crazy expensive now; I've been looking for a 65 or later

The 1965 was not a "V35." The S-35 was produced in 1964 and 1965, same airplane for both years. That's the model that I had. Some Bonanza people say that the 'S' in S-35 is for "speedy" or "superlative." This was the first of the most modern of the V-tail Bonanzas; it was the first one to get the 520 cubic inch, 285 hp engine, which was the engine series used until the end of V-tail production in the early 1980s.

Starting in 1966, the S-35 was phased out, and the V-35 took its place (Beech skipped T-35 and U-35 in the model designations). After the V-35, the next model was the V-35A, and then the final model in the series, the V-35B. The 'S' is particularly desirable because the following models had somewhat heavier airframes with the same IO-520 / 285 hp engine, so they were not quite as fast -- the S-35 was the fastest normally aspirated Bonanza.

It's not easy to find a really good one on the used market. Very few people sell an older Bonanza because everything is working too well, that's not a normal reason for selling.

Mine was sold because my partner wanted a stretch-limo version, the 36 series, with more back seat cabin room (same amount of room up front). Big mistake in my opinion, but he offered to buy me out, so I capitulated and let him do it. No more airplane ownership for me.

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Skull Leader: That insurance quote that you have for the Mooney is probably not out of line, for a student pilot, presumably with little to no time in that type aircraft. The last guy I instructed for transition into a Bonanza was quoted over $10,000 and he was a Private Pilot with about 150 logged hours. We did cut the premium in half by negotiating a stipulation: He was not to fly solo, all flights were to be conducted with me acting as PIC, until he had completed at least 50 hours of dual instruction from me in the airplane, and had earned an instrument rating. That agreement cut the insurance premium from $10,000 annually, to less than $5,000. We did an accelerated program, flying several times a week, focusing on Bonanza operation and instrument flight, and he was able to go without my baby-sitting within a few months.

I'm specifically looking at the 47-53 model V-tails, 185 to 205 horsepower. The more horses of the later models burn too much fuel for what I'm wanting to do.

You clearly like low wing planes, as do I. You may consider the Rockwell Commander.

For your distance and speed requirements, I'd be taking a hard look at a Mooney.

A few thoughts on buying an airplane; the specific airplane you get may be best chosen by what you find, than a specific model. By this, I mean that A lower time airplane of one kind at a better price may be better than a higher time airplane of a different make or model. I wouldn't pin myself to just one airplane type unless you're really in love with it. See what's available, because the specifics of the individual airplane will make all the difference.

For your mission, an instrument rating will be an important investment; seek training as your first investment. It meals lower insurance rates, but also a safer you. That said, don't let an instrument rating lure you into pushing the boundaries of single pilot instrument flight, sans radar, ice protection, autopilot, etc. Single pilot instrument flying may be some of the highest demand flying you can do.

Long trips in a light airplane are a matter of pleasure than business or economics. It's going to cost less to fly commercially, and when you're flying privately, you've always got to be prepared to park that airplane and wait out weather, or leave the airplane take a car, bus, or commercial flight.

No matter what you get, be prepared for that first annual to eat your lunch, financially. Get a good pre-buy inspection, but plan on the unseen coming to light.

You may find that a multi-engine airplane might serve your needs, but again, seek training.

It's very common for new pilots to try to buy as much airplane as they can afford, not what they can handle: consequently the reputation in times past of the Bonanza and the 210 as doctor-killers. It's also common for new pilots to seek airplanes that are more than what they need for the mission.

Of the airplanes mentioned, perhaps the Arrow, but they're not the sturdiest of aircraft. You may find the least expensive parts, relatively speaking. A moony was mentioned. Not a bad choice.

I wouldn't overlook an experimental; some have better craftsmanship than factory airpalnes, with more performance, lower maintenance costs, etc. They do present their own challenges, not the least of which is finding someone with experience to do condition inspections, training in type, etc. A Cozy or Long EX is a relatively fast machine that's made for cross country.

Have a hangar.

If you own an airplane, build or have a healthy maintenance reserve. A simple cylinder change will cost you as much as putting a new engine in your car, and a gear actuator is a house payment. Airworthiness Directives are expenses that pop up to drain your account, and there's the overhaul, etc. It all costs more than you think it will.

You can find your own mechanic locally and send him or her to do a pre-buy, but it's expensive and they won't have their equipment, shop, etc. Most shops or mechanics are able to help with a pre-buy inspection, but understand that the inspection may not catch everything an annual will, or meet the same scope unless you want to pay for an annual. That can be be arranged between buyer and seller, and a fresh annual is a good idea, though if you get one done by the seller's IA, the guy that's been letting things slip may let them become a problem for your next annual. If you're looking at several aircraft, an annual on each isn't practical, so a third party is a better choice...but again, be aware that the scope may not catch everything that your next annual will. Someone performing a pre-buy doesn't have the legal obligations of someone doing an annual inspection.

Have a thorough service bulletin and AD search done on the aircraft. There are a lot of hidden gotchas, from internal magneto issues to service difficulty reports on the engine or airframe (or components) that may not be AD's yet, but that are still critical to know.

Avionics: this gets expensive, fast. Like a scope on a rifle, it can quickly surpass the value of the airplane. IFR capability in terms of instrumentation, avionics, etc, will be an important part of your stated mission, do don't overlook this crucial element. Again, the specific airplane and what it's got to offer will probably figure more heavily into your purchase, than a specific make and model.

Again, and it can't be overstated, an IFR certified airplane and an instrument ticket, just like a private pilot certificate, is a license to learn, but it comes with the ability to get yourself in way over your head, very, very quickly. VFR into IMC continues to be a killer, and not just for VFR pilots. It's very much a case of just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Think on that really carefully when considering your trips, and aircraft, and make investing in proficiency a top priority going forward. Consider using a safety pilot initially, and not someone who's time building.

For cross country work, the Bonanza is the most comfortable. They're great airplanes. All things Beech are expensive.

That said, a 210 is a nice cross country airplane, and a Cessna 310, even better. It depends how far up the food chain you want to go or invest, but the initial costs for some twins are less, and the costs of owning more. Insuring, of course, another matter, and that depends on your experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Skull Leader:
I'm about 25 hours into my PPL training. Hope to have it finished by this summer.

Congratulations! Stick with it. It seems to only ever get more expensive the longer you wait to finish.

quote:

I've narrowed my search down to I think 3 possible models. Wanted to get your thoughts if anybody has any personal experiences.

1: Beechcraft 24R Sierra
2: Beechcraft 35 V-tail Bonanza
3: Piper Arrow 180

I love all three of those aircraft. Here's my thoughts having flown and maintained all three of them.

1. I love a sierra. It's fairly easy to work on, very roomy inside, and a straightforward aircraft. With that said, it is a bit doggy. It's slow. In the mountains and in a downdraft, its really underpowered. It's also pretty cheap to fly, at least until it comes to maintenance and insurance. The "R" kills it for a low-time pilot. Get insurance quotes. As an IA, I'd love one if it had the power to do my mission in the mountains. As someone who has to pay someone like me to do maintenance every year on it, my recommendation is to really understand what that R is going to do to your pocketbook. That said, nothing is sexier than gear that fold on command.

2. I LOVE bo's. They're kind of a love them or hate them plane. Older models have their idiosyncrasies, but nothing that a pilot can't learn pretty easily. I think they are easy to fly. When I finally finished my PPSEL my first passengers were my family in my dad's '58. I got my high performance/complex endorsements in that Bo. I don't always love to work on them, they aren't the easiest but they are far from the hardest. When it comes to efficiency, they're really hard to beat. The market for them is really high right now, for not good reasons. There is not a fix for the magnesium issue yet, and a lot of people get screwed on that if they aren't careful. There are some other recent AD's out also. Personally, I wouldn't buy one these days. Look at a debonair instead. Another good consideration is a Comanche 250 or 260. Get an insurance quote though....and ask your local IA what he's going to charge for the base inspection annually. I think you're probably going to want to look fixed gear for your first couple hundred hours. Another consideration about a v-tail, you live in big wind country. I ran out of rudder in a crosswind in ABQ while flying a bo. There are more capable aircraft designs for crosswind landing. The bo is fine, and can do a crosswind, but there are better options if you're doing them all the time.

3. Love/Hate Cherokee 180's. The arrow is only slightly better (having that cool folding gear factor). I think a Cherokee 180 is a dog for a family to fly. An arrow is worse unless you step up to the 200. From a maintenance perspective, it typically doesn't get much easier. Most of the auto gear systems have been disabled making that gear easy to work on. Why retractable gear though? Insurance is going to kill you. Down and welded isn't as cool, but it can be up to 5 times more expensive to insure a retract. I"m seeing these arrows list for around $100K right now. They were $30-50K just 5-6 years ago. You're at the TOP of the bubble. Take that into consideration.

Alternative aircraft: Comanche 250 or 260 (still a retract), Pathfinder/Cherokee 235 (great aircraft, cheap to maintain, cheap to insure, beats the performance out of every plane you've listed), Tri-Pacer (4 place, very stable, easy to fly, cheap to maintain, very affordable acquisition. It's an easy IFR training platform if properly equipped. Things happen slow, giving you lots of time to stay ahead of the plane. Awesome first airplane, slow...builds time.), Cessna 175 (sometimes found for a steal, it's between a 172 and a 182, a lot of people don't know about them so the market isn't as ballooned as other aircraft. Many have ditched the geared motor (I would avoid the geared motor). Look at the Cessna 205 also if you can find one.

The key to this market is looking for planes that aren't in unreasonably high demand. The key to not getting hosed while doing that is a LOT of research, and a very good IA for the pre-buy. Get insurance and annual inspection quotes for all of these aircraft. The costs may steer you in a different direction than you're currently going in.

quote:

1200 miles is a long way so I will admit that speed and fuel efficiency are priorities for me and it seems that these models can cruise 135+ knots on roughly 10 gallons an hour. Also will need to be IFR certified as I plan on picking up my IFR cert in the not to distant future.

Anybody have any advice on financing? Good experiences with companies you've used in the past? Will probably finance no more than 50%.

The sierra and arrow won't be as efficient as the Bo or a Comanche for your mission. The costs though, are a lot more than just fuel in flying. In cross-country flying I look at the ability to fly around trouble and have options.
As for financing, my best advise is to figure out how much you can borrow against your home. Use that equity to make your aircraft purchase. Try not to tie your plane up in a loan.

quote:

What about finding someone to do a pre-buy? How should I tackle that?

Reputation is big. Familiarity is also big. You don't want to use the same IA that regularly maintains the plane, and you don't want to use someone the seller knows. At the same time, the seller needs to trust the IA performing the inspection. It's getting hard to find the right IA these days for these planes. Don't get scammed by the glitz and glam of the brokers and opinions of owners who aren't mechanics themselves. Everyone has their own opinion about what a pre-purchase inspection is. If you're going to trust an IA to do one for you, trust them to look at the important things for each model of aircraft. Talk IN ADVANCE about what should be looked at. Logbooks are a big part. If the plane is in good shape but the books aren't, that's a problem. One that isn't always easy or cheap to fix. People in aviation WILL take advantage of a new buyer. People will attempt to offload their dog of a plane on you. Since the stakes are often in the order of $100K+, they'll try pretty hard to pull it off.

quote:

ETA: I'm a bit weary of the Bonanza because of the magnesium corrosion issue. I don't understand why someone hasn't figured out carbon fiber replacements yet or something. Any thoughts?

The bonanza owners have been trying for decades to come up with a solution. Join Beechtalk. There's a lot of good info there.

quote:

Originally posted by P250UA5:

quote:

Originally posted by aileron:

last October I almost made a deal on a beautiful Billings based V35, but a week before we closed the airline pilot owner and his wife were killed in a landing accident in the '65 V35S.

Small world, I knew the owners of that plane, they were close friends of my dad's

Their son, Riley (also a CFII) who was also onboard survived the crash, but remains in a SLC burn unit with 70% of his body burned. A terrible tragedy. RIP Rob and Pam.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/...nza-n354m-fatal.html

quote:

Originally posted by aileron:

quote:

Originally posted by P250UA5:

quote:

Originally posted by aileron:

last October I almost made a deal on a beautiful Billings based V35, but a week before we closed the airline pilot owner and his wife were killed in a landing accident in the '65 V35S.

Small world, I knew the owners of that plane, they were close friends of my dad's

Their son, Riley (also a CFII) who was also onboard survived the crash, but remains in a SLC burn unit with 70% of his body burned. A terrible tragedy. RIP Rob and Pam.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/...nza-n354m-fatal.html

RIP. Rob was a very experienced pilot from what I've heard, former United pilot.
Riley was PIC, I believe. I read the report & sounds like a partial stall aborted landing.

This is right in my wheelhouse, I’m on my 3rd plane now. I’ve owned 2 Pipers, now a Rockwell Commander.

25 hours in, a bit of a ways to go. I’m not trying to dissuade, just the facts. After that there’s a pretty big safety realm.

That aside, retractable gear bites you in several areas, insurance & maintenance for starters. I’ve always said, the Archer is where to start. After that, the RV-10 is a great choice.

I’ve flown the Al-can Hwy, to the Grand Canyon & a handful in between.

I get a little wheezy when the discussion of private planes for trips comes up. The main obstacle is weather bounced against schedules. Many lack the ability to adjust, cancel or land short.

Whatever, continue training, to a check ride, then evaluate.

Never got a ride in it, but my crack dealer (dentist that got me flying) had a Piper Lance that she loved.

Huge performance increase over her Cessna Cardinal.

RG, 6 seats & IIRC around 200 cruise speed.

Not sure if that would suit your needs.

AKSuperDually mentioned the Cherokee 235. Not as sexy as a Bonanza, but roomy, reliable, much lower maintenance and insurance cost. A good choice for a first airplane, and very capable.

The last guy whom I instructed for instrument rating, we did it in the Cherokee 235 that he owned at the time.

Most airplanes are weight-limited, in that you typically can not fill all the seats with adults, add full fuel, and any luggage, and still be within limits. I don't have a POH for the Cherokee 235, but I believe that it will take four adults, reasonable luggage, and full tanks. That needs to be confirmed.

Just sitting here sipping a bourbon and loving every word of this thread. I don’t have the math to even pretend to be a pilot, but I love aircraft and listening in to knowledgeable discussion about them.

quote:

Originally posted by Skull Leader:

I'm specifically looking at the 47-53 model V-tails, 185 to 205 horsepower. The more horses of the later models burn too much fuel for what I'm wanting to do.

The very early models had electric props. Controllable pitch, but not constant speed. Not sure when the change was made to hydraulic props.

The low end of the horsepower range for the years that you mentioned was 165 hp, not 185.

Re fuel cost, some of the earlier Bonanzas are eligible for an STC to use auto gas. I'm not too familiar with which models, but an internet search engine will find that, easily enough.

The American Bonanza Society offered (I assume that they still do) a traveling school, might be coming to a city near you: the BPPP, acronym for the Bonanza (and Baron) Pilot Proficiency Program. I instructed in this for a dozen years or so. It was a three-day weekend deal. Friday was all classroom stuff, various topics, some of them required core stuff, others were your choice of optional topics, classes were one to two hours each. Saturday and Sunday were four sessions of four hours each. Clients flew, one-on-one, with an instructor for two of those sessions, and had additional ground school and seminars for the other sessions. Insurance companies loved to see certificates of completion for that school, and we had a lot of repeat offenders, who would come back over and over again to maintain proficiency.