quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
The yellow light isn’t the hit the accelerator to beat the red light signal. If the motorcycle had a green, then it would be the car driver’s fault 100%.

Really? I’d have sworn that most (all?) Kommiefornia driver are trained from birth that:
Green means Go.
Red means stop.
Yellow means go like hell, red is coming.

I rode motorcycles for about 40 years. The guy who taught me to ride was a former fighter pilot, and race car driver. His first and strongest lesson was ride like every other driver out there is a homicidal maniac who wants to kill you. Who is right doesn't matter, only who is left. Must have worked. Other than a few scratches riding in the woods, I never had an accident on a bike. Can't quite say that for cars.

quote:

Originally posted by Hildur:
Despite all that I just didn't see him and that should scare the shit out of anyone who rides a motorcycle.

Seeing involves the brain processing stimuli coming from the optic nerve and making sense of it. There are nine gagillion things that the eyeball “sees” that the brain discards because it is irrelevant detail or doesn’t matter. We’d all go crazy if that wasn’t the case, just way too much information to process. It is really hard to see motorcycles when you aren’t expecting them. “Eh, kinda looks like a motorcycle, but wrong time of year for that, must be a tree.” happens at a level so far down in the brain that one isn’t even conscious of it.

As a kid up until I got my license I rode a bike (ten speed) all over town and on two lane country roads (no bike lanes then). I was told to ride like the drivers couldn’t see me. My response was “Heck no, I ride like they are actively trying to get me.” With all the texting and driving these days it is probably 1000 times worse.

What a terrifying/horrifying situation you were in. Thank goodness you were able to avoid a crash.

quote:

Originally posted by 911Boss:
While rarely exercised, I believe you are not to stop in an intersection. Even if waiting for oncoming traffic to clear.

Hmmm, I wonder if that is different in different states? I’ve seen many busy intersections where no one would ever be able to turn left if not for the one or two cars pulling into the intersection and waiting for the oncoming traffic to stop for the red (or yellow if they are kind) light and allow the left turners to clear the intersection. I don’t know if this is legal, or a “deviation allowed for the social good”, but I’ve seen it a lot, and I’ve seen multiple times when officers watched it and took no action.

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If you are turning left, you should stop and wait at the limit line not mid-intersection.

Is it illegal to increase speed when a light goes yellow to pass safely before turning red? Is it more or less dangerous than slamming on the brakes and possibly being rear ended by the vehicle behind you?

And there is the crux: There is legal, and there is safe. Safe is a heck of a lot more important than legal. 360 degree situational awareness makes it a lot easier to decide what is safe.

quote:

If that’s the case, both vehicles “tried to beat” the yellow as the flashing yellow should have turned solid at the same time the green turned yellow for the bike.

Bottom line, car has duty to yield, bike had right of way but the legal right doesn’t suspend laws of physics however and biker paid the ultimate price.

Car driver should be charged appropriately for failure to yield and so on.


Seems the writer had a bit of an anti-motorcycle slant.

Sigh, lately it seems every writer anymore has one slant or another.

My last ever motorcycle ride ended like this but I didn't die...

I was shifting from 2nd to 3rd gear when a truck turned left in front of me.(I didn't see you)

My motorcycle stuck to the right corner of his truck and I ended up flying over the top of his small Toyota truck past his bed into the street behind the left back corner of his truck.

It all happened in slow motion while I was in the air. I did a tuck and roll when I hit the pavement. I was in good shape and about 23 years old and playing College Soccer at the time.

This was pre hemet era and I was in shorts...I was stupid and invincible...Last time I ever got on a motorcycle.

We have the flashing yellow arrows in AZ, but I don't understand why. If you're turning left at an intersection with a light, you never have right of way unless you have a green arrow. Solid green means left turns yield to oncoming traffic. So why bother with the yellow left turn arrows? It's also not required to stop for a solid yellow light, just that you be through the intersection before it turns red. Yellow light timing is a very iffy thing. But if you know the area well and have been through that intersection a lot, you should know if you have time to make it through. Some intersections around here have yellow lights so short, a single car cannot make it through the intersection from the time green changes to yellow to red. That's total BS, but I have seen it plenty around Phoenix.

And lastly, I ride a lot. My headlights are blinding LEDs. No one will ever be able to say they can't see me coming, even with the blazing AZ sun behind me.

In my experience in the same state, charging in motor vehicle accident deaths oftentimes is subject to enough interpretation that it doesn’t necessarily make sense to most, myself included.

As a former police officer it appears like both parties were at fault as story presented. Bike for possibly speeding and for car for turning across traffic lane . The speed of the motorcycle might have contributed to the accident . Was the headlight on bike activated and working. Turning across traffic lanes even out in the middle of nowhere is still not ok unless it is done safely due to oncoming traffic. Yellow traffic control lights indicates to slow down and proceede with caution in reguard to other traffic. Any investigations can indicate who did what but the bottom line it would be the final decision of the District Attorney to actually proceede with legal action . ....................... drill sgt.

Here's my take:

The crash investigators will have to work through a few mathematical equations here, all of which are common in the industry of crash investigations.


The speed of the motorcycle at the time of the collision.

The speed of the other vehicle at the time of the collision. The vehicle's black box would assist in gathering this information - speed, throttle percentage, seatbelt usage etc.

Working backwards from the point of impact, will be a time/distance equation - with a few "if/then statements". If the motorcycle was traveling "X" miles per hour, how far away from the intersection would it have been at how many seconds prior to the point of impact. You can work this equation from several different speed possibilities. This equation can also be worked with an equation based off instead of a constant speed of the motorcycle, but also on an acceleration curve.

The purpose of the time/distance equations is to determine the perception/reaction time of the other vehicle as they made the decision to turn because the intersection was "clear" and they felt they had a reasonable time and ability to clear the intersection even with an oncoming motorcycle. All of this can be plotted on several scale diagrams. If the motorcycle was well back from the intersection then a reasonable driver would argue they had time/space to make their turn.

The other set of equations which would need to be run are to take into consideration what's known as "Delta V" or the change in velocity. In layman's terms, Delta V is what causes death at high speeds - the higher the speed and the immediate impact back down to zero mph result in a higher Delta V and a higher likelihood of serious injury or death. The math would show if the motorcycle had struck the other vehicle at 30mph, then the crash would have caused injuries but maybe not death. But if the motorcycle had struck the vehicle at say 50-60mph, then its highly likely to cause death, because of the immediate deceleration to zero. It's mainly common sense, if you're driving faster and hit something solid, it hurts more - there's just fancy math behind it all. So at the end the question may be, did the motorcyclist's speed cause their own death? Because had the motorcycle been going the speed limit, then a crash from failing to yield the right of way may not have resulted in death.

All of this will be put together into a giant report. Absent glaring circumstances like an involved party was also under the influence of drugs/alcohol - the crash investigator would most likely present all of these findings to a grand jury and let them decide if charges are needed.

My qualifications for making the above statements - 20 years as a cop, accident reconstruction certified, advanced collision reconstruction certified, motorcycle collision reconstruction certified, auto vs pedestrian reconstruction certified, and I'm currently a motor cop at my agency. Just my two cents, but that's how I would approach this kind of collision. They're never easy decisions, it's a lot of math, a lot of coffee, and a lot of tossing around ideas and theories in the office with other officers with similar qualifications. Towards the end you call the DA's Office and explain the train wreck as best as possible.

The police had access to dashcam video of this from another driver behind the car that turned, and based on that declined to charge. I trust they had good information to assess. From how I read it, while the car had to yield on flashing yellow, it was clearing the intersection close to the red, the motorcyclist apparently should not have sped up on the yellow so close to the red. It’s a shame, didn’t have to happen. Raleigh traffic is crazy especially on a motorcycle. That’s why I get out on the country backroads as soon as I can.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
News story make NO sense! I've never seen a intersection where one direction of travel had a blinking yellow (yield) and any other direction or roadway entering the intersection had a traffic light controlling it. The Motorist, at the very least, is guilty of Failure to Yield!

I pretty sure 'Left Turning Motorists' kill more Motorcyclists in this country than ANY other cause of Fatal MC Accidents!

Left turning motorists definitely kill a lot of motorcyclists. Being a motorcyclist myself when coming to an intersection I scan the intersection but my main focus is always on the car sitting at a red light waiting for it to turn green so they can go left.

So many accidents happen like that because the motorists often are sitting on a red light and as soon as it turns green they go even though they need to wait for a green ARROW. A solid green is a yield situation. That's why a lot of states are getting rid of the solid green to turn all together. You either have a flashing yellow, red or a green arrow. The solid green doesn't register as a yield to people not paying attention so it's been replaced by a flashing yellow arrow.

The bottom line is if the car had a green arrow then it's the motorcyclists fault. Anything else and it's the cars fault.

When I get on my bike I always keep in mind that it doesn't matter whose fault it is. I'm the one who's not gonna walk away. I don't want to be dead right, ever. "I'm invisible and everyone is trying to kill me" has kept me alive for a while.

I'll bet you'll find laws vary state to state and how the lights are managed vary county to county and city to city.

Who is at fault? I'd say both as both have a duty to operate in a safe manner to avoid a crash. Based on a poorly written article it appears the cyclist tried to beat the light (unsafe) and the car turned on a yellow arrow across oncoming traffic they assumed would stop (unsafe).

Looked up NC traffic law.

“ In North Carolina, however, a solid yellow light is just a warning that the light is about to turn red. In other words, you can enter an intersection while the light is still yellow, just not after it has turned red.”

In Washington this mean any part of the car enters the intersection on yellow, they are fine.

The flashing yellow. Arguably that driver was also in the yellow.

We’re. Both trying to “beat the red”? If the motorcycle “ran the red” then the car did the same. I’ve not seen a flashing yellow continue on a red light.

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:
I'll bet you'll find laws vary state to state and how the lights are managed vary county to county and city to city.

Who is at fault? I'd say both as both have a duty to operate in a safe manner to avoid a crash. Based on a poorly written article it appears the cyclist tried to beat the light (unsafe) and the car turned on a yellow arrow across oncoming traffic they assumed would stop (unsafe).

If the motorists turned on a flashing yellow how did they know what the motorcyclists light was? That’s why it’s a yield. You have to yield to traffic until they clear.

It’s simple really.

I was taught, " Left turn yields to any and all traffic". I think that rule still applies, at least in my case it does.

Having said that, if the bike accelerated to beat the light, then I think the auto driver has a defense based on the concept that he did yield and given the speed (convergence) of the vehicles at the time he initiated his turn it was sufficient to have yielded to the oncoming vehicle.

Not much different in sailboat racing. You are steering to avoid and the bonehead on the other boat blows a maneuver. Except in "most cases", nobody dies.

Just my 2 cents. Tragic outcome of course.

If the Kia driver was turning left on a flashing yellow he was obligated to yield to oncoming traffic. As for the motorcycle "running the red light", that is made up fiction BECAUSE THE KIA HAD THE YELLOW. This story is simply some news writer exhibiting his bias against motorcycles.

quote:

Originally posted by Icabod:
Looked up NC traffic law.

“ In North Carolina, however, a solid yellow light is just a warning that the light is about to turn red. In other words, you can enter an intersection while the light is still yellow, just not after it has turned red.”

In Washington this mean any part of the car enters the intersection on yellow, they are fine.

The flashing yellow. Arguably that driver was also in the yellow.

We’re. Both trying to “beat the red”? If the motorcycle “ran the red” then the car did the same. I’ve not seen a flashing yellow continue on a red light.

I'm really curious if there is a distinction in how NC treats accelerating to enter the intersection on yellow to beat the the red light versus vehicles maintaining a steady speed which happen to have entered the intersection on yellow. That could make a significant difference.

In Michigan we're technically not allowed to accelerate to beat the light, assuming we haven't yet entered the intersection, and yellow is considered a "caution, prepare to stop" indication.

I'm a little shocked how few guys are getting this.

The speed of an oncoming vehicle has never changed the meaning of a yield sign or light. As the person sitting on a flashing yellow light waiting to turn left you don't know what the oncoming traffic light is doing. For all you know the motorcyclists had a clear green the whole way.

That's why you YIELD to on coming traffic. Usually there's an additional sign by the light to remind people because so many people don't get it. Half the responses are a bit shocking but proof positive why so many people get killed or injured in this fashion.

Following that logic, how would red light running motorcyclist know that left turning car did not have a green arrow?

Turning in front of oncoming traffic is bad, but so is running red lights. Driving is an act of faith in your fellow man doing the right thing. Any time you pass a car heading in the opposite direction on a 55mph two lane blacktop, you have to believe you won’t be involved in a 110mph head on collision.