There is no ethanol free fuel available anywhere around me. The closest option, according to the Pure Gas website, is about 50 miles away for a 100 octane version.

Nearly all fuel marketed in America is contains ethanol. We are likely headed to E15 in the next non-conservative administration. But, for now, E10 will do.

E10 contains 10% of a hydrocarbon that does NOT provide the same heating value as gasoline. So, you burn MORE E10 than pure gasoline for the same brake mean effective pressure (BMEP). 10% of the lower ethanol heating value + 90% of the gasoline heating value is less than 100% of the gasoline heating value. It is just energy economics. That said, people often decry ethanol fuel, as somehow causing harm.

Ethanol, in a car engine, at 10%, can act and does act as an octane enhancer. Ethanol, as a polar solvent, does in fact serve to remove deposits. Ethanol-containing fuel, for most vehicles, is NOT an issue. In the ancient of days, the quantity of ethanol was not always the same, and it was hard to manage the combustion well. Nowadays, there is an ethanol sensor in the fuel line, and those things are scary accurate. The computer looks at that percentage and adjusts the quantities of fuel injected accordingly.

What we humans tend to do is apply observations in one system to a second system. Does E10 harm marine outboard engines? It sure can. Can it harm small engines? It might. Should we then transfer those observations to our cars?

Well, it is tempting so to do. But, it is not required. In a modern car, with Port Fuel Injection (PFI), the supply fuel pressure is about 60 psig. In a Gasoline Direct Injection (GDI) engine, the injector pressure can be up to 3000 psig. Does the marine engine have these pressures? Does a lawnmower carb? Nope. Does a car fuel remain in a vented tank for days, weeks, or months? Nope. Is the car fuel therefore exposed to high humidity? Nope. Is the car fuel in its tank dealing with high and low temperatures, swings of humidity, and the resultant drawing in of atmospheric moisture time and time again? Nope.

So, the entire combustion process is different. Particularly with GDI. Fuel droplets are now a finely dispersed mist. Combustion flames race across the chamber as a result. Combustion occurs when the resultant cylinder pressure can be timed exactly at the proper piston location, a few degrees after top dead center.

So, don't be afeerd of a little alcohol. But, quality fuel is ideal. Top Tier, a voluntary credential, is a good start. Once Top Tier II requirements take hold, that fuel will be even better. Top Tier, for the global retailers, is a starting point, not the goal. Superior performance remains possible, even above Top Tier.

The simple answer, for me, is to avoid convenience store marketers. And, if you have a few extra bucks, premium grade for maximum detergency.

quote:

Originally posted by 4MUL8R:

The simple answer, for me, is to avoid convenience store marketers. And, if you have a few extra bucks, premium grade for maximum detergency.

Really appreciate your continued info... When you say "premium grade", are you referring to specific retailers or higher octane, especially in light of your statement that "Top Tier" is a useful starting point.

Besides looking for "Top Tier" associated fuel and avoiding unbranded convenience store fuel, what can I, the ignorant consumer, do to reliably select the good stuff? Major national brands? The pricier the better? Arco stations are typically one of the cheaper locations, and probably the cheapest of the big names (around here anyway)... but they advertise Top Tier. Is it the same as in Chevron of Shell, who are both notably more expensive?

Thanks!

I wish there was a like button for 4MUL8Rs posts.

Good morning, friends,

"Premium grade" to me is premimum octane. A phrase used in the industry, but sadly unclear. If you purchase higher octane from a global fuel marketer (think Shell, ExxonMobil, BP, etc.) the high octane fuel has high level of additive within.

If you purchase fuel from national or regional marketers, you also can find quality products. Many people enjoy the Costco fuel, for both price and quality, which is their key marketing message. They do deliver on performance quality, by the way.

Top Tier is a voluntary standard that requires the fuel meet a few challenging tests. You can learn more at the Top Tier website, so I won't bore you with paragraphs of info here...https://www.toptiergas.com

So, what makes Top Tier gas better? The tests require an effective detergent additive and more of the detergent additive than found in fuels without that credential. Beyond the additive type and quantity, the streams of refined hydrocarbons that make up gasoline also have to be well-formulated. Yes, fuel is not one substance. There are over 400 different types (structures) of hydrocarbons in gasoline. Hard to believe, I know, but there is a routine fuel test to identify and quantify what exactly is in fuel. ASTM D6733 is one such test.

You inquired about ARCO. A brand of Marathon, a refiner of fuel, ARCO meets Top Tier standards and positions itself as a quality and value choice. I don't have any history with that brand, though. Based solely on what we can read about ARCO, and its long corporate life, I would place their fuel quality well above the c-store brands.

What is nice about Top Tier credentials is that the tests are NOT specific to any retailer, and there is an independent review of the test results before the credential is granted.

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Earlier the question was raised on how long it takes for an additive to clean injectors in real life. That is a tough question. It is difficult to answer because the specific usage of a vehicle changes the likelihood of injector fouling. More cold starts means more chance of fouling. Moderate load (torque) and moderate speed can foul or clean quickly. There is no concrete answer, but with the "related rates" situation we discussed earlier, remember that deposits ARE forming and ARE forming continuously. It is better to remove deposits as best as possible, and then to keep the related rates of formation and removal in your favor.

- - - - - - -

Most folks want to pay for a super duper cleaning fuel once in a while, as premium is about one dollar more per tank. Totally understandable.

Let's try to simplify our choices...just putting things in rank order...

Let's rank these from "most chance of fouling" to "most chance of keeping clean injectors"...the list below begins with most chance of fouling...

Inexpensive fuel without any performance credential

Top Tier fuel

Major global retailer Top Tier regular grade (low octane)

Major global retailer Top Tier premimum grade (high octane)

I had the same issue with my 2013 F150. What mine was, and likely yours, is the same; combustion gases that are recirculated. Under heavy acceleration, these gases can and do cause misfire, when it first happened to me, I was thinking the same as everyone here, but after doing a bit of research I opted to install a "catch can" that captures whatever moisture from fuel and oil (yes there will be oil) in the recirculation gases and all but stops this problem.

The catch can runs about $170.00 and installation is a snap. You will need to empty the can occasionally and if your car is parked outside or you run ethanol, you will likely need to empty the can more often. I've had mine installed for 5 years and haven't had a misfire since.

Interesting solution, cusingeorge!

The Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) necessary in our engines can certainly recirculate the vapors found above the oil sump, which are combustion gases that find their way past piston rings. In these days of minimal ring count and minimal ring thickness, all in the name of fuel economy, blowby is a real thing.

Blowby gasses are essentially inert. Combustion has occurred, high pressure has driven the piston down generating torque, and some combustion gas is seeping or leaking past the rings. Along with those gases, you can actually have fuel leaking past those rings! Gee thanks! More bad stuff. Fuel dilution will occur, and if you measure this in your used engine oil, you can get an idea of how bad your engine really is!

Crankcase pressure (from the blowby gasses) is monitored in various engine tests (both for engine oil and fuel additive research) and there are limits below which the engine is considered OK for testing.

The catch can will capture gases that are ready to condense out of the stream of return flow (headed to your intake manifold). Note that these are NOT liquids (the fuel diluting the engine oil or the oil itself), but entrained junk in the gaseous flow of air all around the engine. Easy to suck into the intake manifold. Being essentially inert, from combusted fuel, you will find them as described above -- a yucky combination of water, particles, and some condensed oil vapor.

I wish I had a catch can on my old truck, now that you bring your solution to us! Maybe I'll have one installed. At 195K miles, those rings are likely passing a lot of gas.

Regardless of blowby gasses being present or not, the injector fouling information remains what we all face with our rides. Quality fuel matters.

The catch can is something I've ran into quite a lot in the past few weeks as it is touted as the ultimate solution to preventing the build-up of condensation in the intercooler, and that build-up is said to be a not-infrequent cause of misfire, when some of that condensate finds it way into the intake manifold.

Apparently Ford has put out some TSB's about this issue as it relates to the EcoBoost engines. It actually is the next thing on my list to eliminate, if further diagnostics ends up being necessary.

That being said, I again failed to recreate the misfire... both on my way home last night and on my way to work this morning.

For me, the issue tended to occur more often in winter months, especially when my pickup was parked outside, thus, moisture was condensing in the intercooler or somewhere along the way.

I just dumped my catch can yesterday while changing the oil, there was about 2 ounces of fluid in it, and I've been parking it outside for the last few weeks.

Still can't induce a misfire.... Guess I'm cautiously calling this one a win until the issue occurs again.

Thanks Redline SI-1!

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
Still can't induce a misfire.... Guess I'm cautiously calling this one a win until the issue occurs again.

Thanks Redline SI-1!

If the fuel trims came down you should be good to go.

quote:

Originally posted by rizzle:
If the fuel trims came down you should be good to go.

Haven't hooked up the forscan yet, wanted to give it a solid couple weeks for the long term trims to adjust.