quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:

quote:

the Scenic Drive home had converted from oil to propane last summer, but the exterior pipe wasn’t removed along with the oil tank

And from this we learn......?

I understand that underground oil tanks are usually emptied and filled with sand. That's the way I've seen older homes that used to be on oil and converted to gas were handled. My grandparents home near where I live was built in 1966 and the old oil tank (filled with sand) and fill pipe are still there to this day.

I worked a case like this in Rhode Island as well. When you fill the tank, air comes out and goes out a whistle pipe. If you don't hear the whistle you are to stop pumping. But guys often connect the hose, go back to the truck and dial in the gallons and let it flow without going back to the nozzle to listen.

I don't think you'll ever get the smell out of that house, no matter how many times you clean the area it spilled. Fumes have already permeated the the wood, insulation etc. It all has absorbed some of the smell. I wouldn't want the house.

That being said, how hard is it to put something/anything in the fill to block it so nobody can put a nozzle in it.....even a wooden plug would work.

I clicked on the second page and something jumped out on my screen.
HOLY SHIT, IT'S A BEAR!
You might want to shrink that a bit. 60x60 is the recommended size.

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Originally posted by redstone:

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Originally posted by rburg:
So did the company fire the delivery guy?

I hope not, The family should have sealed or removed the fill pipe when they had it converted to propane.

I hope they did! Every oil fill vent should have a working whistle... and if you don't/can't hear the whistle when filling, you STOP immediately.

Had the delivery driver stopped after hearing no whistle, it would've been less than 50 gallons, not over 100.

That driver is just as negligent as anyone else involved.

I do not know about remediation and clean up costs, but when I read the article about $14,000 to clean it up I laughed and thought "There is no effing way that they can clean up a few inches of heating oil in a basement for $14,000.

It's seems to me that this is a mistake that would almost require the house to be totaled, much like a car. "I am sorry, cleaning up a few hundred gallons of heating oil will cost more than the home is worth, here is check for the value of the home, land, moving expenses and extra for your trouble."

quote:

Originally posted by holdem:
I do not know about remediation and clean up costs, but when I read the article about $14,000 to clean it up I laughed and thought "There is no effing way that they can clean up a few inches of heating oil in a basement for $14,000.

It's seems to me that this is a mistake that would almost require the house to be totaled, much like a car. "I am sorry, cleaning up a few hundred gallons of heating oil will cost more than the home is worth, here is check for the value of the home, land, moving expenses and extra for your trouble."

That was my thoughts as well....that number is merely the tip of the iceberg. The smell and lingering fumes will require new paint along with new carpeting/flooring, if not tearing out and replacing the entire basement section.

I don't know where you guys get some of these ideas. My recent experience was that the oil company dumped 1000gal of oil in my mom's basement as a result of a pipe failure. The cleanup was State mandated and managed as you would expect. They whole concrete basement floor was removed and every piece of dirt under it with oil removed. A ventilation system installed and a new floor poured over it. Not a single item in the upstairs had to be dealt with. This was also the case with another friend of mine that had a similar spill. There is no need based on my experience to 'total' the house. You definitely don't want to be home why they remediate it as the hydrocarbon levels will be high and jackhammers will be involved, but after there should be no problems with a competent job.

quote:

Originally posted by holdem:
I do not know about remediation and clean up costs, but when I read the article about $14,000 to clean it up I laughed and thought "There is no effing way that they can clean up a few inches of heating oil in a basement for $14,000.

I am guessing 20 times that amount - would not be surprised at all with a cost of about $250k

hrcjon is correct, this can and will be mitigated without bulldozing the house.

I've only done a handful of very small oil/hydraulic fluid cleanups, but I've lost count of the sewage backups, fires, dead bodies and the worst smell ever - refrigerators that have lost power for weeks on end. All of them were odor free when done, there's plenty of proven methods to remove odors.

From the insurance perspective, this will be a liability claim I suspect. The real kicker will be that everything will be depreciated on the reconstruction side of the claim. That's when the real fun starts with an upset homeowner.

I'm also in the camp of, "why the hell does one not remove the fill pipe?"

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Originally posted by hrcjon:
I don't know where you guys get some of these ideas. My recent experience was that the oil company dumped 1000gal of oil in my mom's basement as a result of a pipe failure. The cleanup was State mandated and managed as you would expect. They whole concrete basement floor was removed and every piece of dirt under it with oil removed. A ventilation system installed and a new floor poured over it. Not a single item in the upstairs had to be dealt with. This was also the case with another friend of mine that had a similar spill. There is no need based on my experience to 'total' the house. You definitely don't want to be home why they remediate it as the hydrocarbon levels will be high and jackhammers will be involved, but after there should be no problems with a competent job.

That's my point... Based on what you stated above, there is NO WAY that is done for $14K. To remove all the concrete and the dirt and rebuild, that is multitudes greater than $14K. Heck, just the bill for temporary lodging for the homeowners could run half of that, cause that is not a job that is done in a week.

Now, if this is $500K house, then maybe it's worth it. But I could see a small house, in the middle of the country where prices have not gone crazy, the clean up easily costing more than the house is worth.

I'm not sure your point. The cost of the cleanup and the cost of the house are independent of each other. You don't have an option to Not clean up the spill. You are doing it period and to a set of standards that the house will be completely usable. That's the law in every jurisdiction that I know.

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Originally posted by nhtagmember:
It’s not just the cost of digging everything out. It’s now considered a hazardous waste so the contaminant disposal fees are going to kill you.

Actually fuel oil is not considered Hazardous Waste. The flash point is too high. This cleanup, as stated above, will be well into the 6 figures. When I was a kid growing up in NH I remember a situation like this where they actually bought out the owner and tore the house down.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
I'm not sure your point. The cost of the cleanup and the cost of the house are independent of each other. You don't have an option to Not clean up the spill. You are doing it period and to a set of standards that the house will be completely usable. That's the law in every jurisdiction that I know.

My question is: Is it easier to not bother working around the rest of the house?

Option one: We bring in a ton of specialized equipment. Manual labor to run jackhammers. Each piece of concrete and scoop of dirt is carried out by hand. Then we rebuild the same way.

Option two: We bring in a huge back hoe, everything is torn down and scooped out in less than a week and the site is fresh and ready for a new build.

Depending on the price of the home, I have to believe there is a point where option two is the better option.

This is the industry I work in and have dealt with this situation before.

Once the DEM is involved, the oil company has nothing to do with the clean up. An independent remediation is brought in and the are mandated standards that need to be met. The clean up will run into six figures.

The driver was negligent for continuing to pump despite not hearing a whistle but the ultimate fault is with whoever removed the tank but did not remove the fill pipe. We had a situation where the tank was removed but the fill pipe left in place. Our driver stopped pumping almost immediately when there was no whistle but at that point the basement was already a mess. Ultimately we were found not responsible since the homeowner had not called to end auto delivery and the tank removal did not meet code since the fill was left in place.

I have lots of stories about spills.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thank you for taking the time to respond.

quote:

Originally posted by smlsig:

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
It’s not just the cost of digging everything out. It’s now considered a hazardous waste so the contaminant disposal fees are going to kill you.

Actually fuel oil is not considered Hazardous Waste. The flash point is too high. This cleanup, as stated above, will be well into the 6 figures. When I was a kid growing up in NH I remember a situation like this where they actually bought out the owner and tore the house down.

Interesting. Fuel oil was considered a hazardous waste when I was in the business of remediation but that was about 20 years ago. I did a lot of LUST work and brown fields work in addition to site scoring and classifications for CERCLA. I was in EPA Region 1.

Glad to see things have changed because leaking tanks out a lot of service stations out of business in New England.

This used to be more common in this area. All of Philly and the 'burbs were wood heat, then coal, then oil. After WWII Pew [The Peoples Natural Gas Company --> Sunoco] began moving NG to the Mid-Atlantic area via their 10" & 12" oil pipelines. At this point, most homes are NG. PGW has not gotten to every street; there will be a few houses here and there without gas service; you'll see the oil trucks thru the winter.

My c.1926 brick rowhome was gravity-water via coal when built. There is still a vent plate on the wall, so it was oil at one point. It's now gas, low-pressure, but there is talk of PGW going to medium-pressure gas delivery. A mile away they recently cut a 12" tee into a main distribution line [closed a road by a busy intersection for 24 months]. Ya should have seen that tap. It looks like they cut the tee into the main line without shutting off the gas.

House about a mile up the road had a Fuel oil truck roll over into their front yard. Dumped quite a bit (>1000 gallons) of fuel oil into their basement. Driver said he lost his brakes, I figure he took the corner too fast. The clean up took months. I figure tearing down the house and mining out the dirt would have been cheaper. House is still standing.