I have a 2001 Toyota Double cab Tacoma that I bought new. It has 230,000 miles on it and runs like the day I bought it. Has a few little dings and 230,000 miles worth of wear on the inside. I paid $25,000.00 for it. Maybe in a few months I can sell it for what I bought it for. That would be pretty awesome.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Ford stock was not purchased by the United States Treasury and later sold at a $9 billion dollar loss.

That was GM.

Pretty sure it was 11 billion.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Who would pay $20k over MSRP for anything? You will never get that money back.

I agree. I would wait it out. It’ll improve.

Wait until Ford starts trying to ship to dealers all those partially completed F150's and F250's spread out all over race track infields right now, and hoping buyers will be willing to pony up coin for cobbled together trucks. Something tells me they won't be selling at a premium then.

Even before all this nonsense started dealerships were marking certain cars above MSRP. In 2019 some dealerships priced Corvettes over MSRP, local Toyota dealership had a Supra priced at 20 grand over MSRP and the local Nissan dealership had all their Maximas priced 5000 over MSRP.

quote:

Originally posted by nukeandpave:

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Ford stock was not purchased by the United States Treasury and later sold at a $9 billion dollar loss.

That was GM.

Pretty sure it was 11 billion.

I netted the $11.3 billion GM loss with the $2.4 GMAC gain and rounded to the nearest billion.

Back to the topic:
Vehicle prices are nuts. MSRP was nuts to begin with. In 2016, when I paid $54k out the door (taxes and everything included) for my new 2015 F350 CC diesel Lariat. List price before taxes and fees was a little over $65k. I’ve always said MSRP is a made up number that doesn’t mean anything just like dealer invoice. All that matters is what you are willing to pull out of your pocket.

Last month, my wife and I bought a KIA. They were asking $11k over list, I said we'd pay list. They said no, so we walked away and ordered an Explorer for under list the next day. Four days later, the KIA dealer called and asked if we were still interested at the price I had offered. My wife asked me why they didn’t just sell us the vehicle in the first place and why did they call us back. I figured it was because the dealer thought they’d sell it for more over the Mother’s Day weekend because it was a vehicle all the hot moms want and the dealer called us because after that passed they hadn’t found anyone else dumb enough to pay list price for a KIA.

It’s the worst car deal I have ever made, but had I bought an Explorer back in March of 2020, I would have had to sell SPY at $230 a share. We had started looking in February when SPY was $330. My wife agreed to keep driving our 8 year old minivan. So, even though it’s the worst car deal I’ve ever made, selling SPY a year later at $420 to buy it takes a little of the sting away.

I wouldn’t get worked up about dealers adding “market adjustments" to the price of vehicles. It’s just another tactic they are using to separate as much of your money from your pocket as they can. Just remember it’s your money until it leaves your pocket and you’ll be fine.

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:

I know the feeling. My last car payment was January of 1979.

I've paid cash for cars since then.

Most trucks I see are doing yeoman commuting driving. Ie, not hauling stuff, not dragging a trailer, not carrying cinder blocks, etc. I’m not a status guy so I figure if somebody pays 65k for a pickup and really could suffice with a Corolla then “a fool and his money..”.

If you don’t NEED a car right now, I would wait.

It seems to be insane everywhere. Take a look at the 2021 Toyota Tacoma TRD Pro in the "special color" Lunar Rock. Some dealers are selling them for $60k +, and any of them that you can find are pre-sold.
And that's for a compact truck...unreal!

Heard where some models of Mercedes are bringing double msrp, AMG most likely, Corvettes are bringing $30 to $40K over, simply put there are way more buyers than cars being produced.

Dealers are watching people pay MSRP and then take the cars to auction houses and getting $120K for them. So why should the dealer sell it at MSRP and forgo the street price, its not gouging if people are willing to pay for it.

Same things going to happen with the new Bronco, it's presold for two years, you cannot buy a new one off the floor. Prices will skyrocket...

As to the Fords in the lots in KY, my understanding is the only thing they are missing is the ECU with the back ordered chips, it's not like they are half completed.. Once chip production catches up they will be plugged in and ready to go...

The chip production shortage will wind up as a case study in some MBA textbook. The automakers figured demand for vehicles would be down and canceled or reduced existing orders for parts. That works in manufacturer’s favor and screws the suppliers. But what are the suppliers going to do when the manufacturer is the 800lb gorilla. It’s not like Michelin can just start making something else for someone else, right?

Not the case with the chip makers. They can transition to making other chips for other applications fairly easily and they did just that. Seems incredibly short sighted on the automakers’ part to not recognize this. Of course it’s easy to armchair quarterback this, but the automakers employ a lot of people with way more letters before and after their names that went to schools much more expensive than UW-Whitewater. Then again, the cost of my degree paid for itself in the first year in the real world.

We are getting into unprecedented territory. I think dealers are going to be feeling the pain pretty soon. There is not a new car to be found as everyone sold their used cars for new.

Dealers paid top dollar for used cars and now have too many. My local Ford dealers doesn’t have a new F150 on the lot but they have 10 used ones that I feel are over priced. People will wait out the shortage and once the new cars start coming back they are going to get burnt on all the used inventory.

I think this is part of a larger bubble to include the current housing bubble. When the market corrects, a whole bunch of people are going to be holding assets that are worth a whole lot less than what they paid for them.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
The chip production shortage will wind up as a case study in some MBA textbook.

They are running out of space to park finished trucks waiting on chips...

https://www.thedrive.com/news/...due-to-chip-shortage

Stockpile of Unfinished Ford Super Duty Pickups Missing Chips Is Now Visible from Space



It's no secret that the global chip shortage is wreaking havoc on automakers; even chip-hoarding Toyota is starting to feel the heat. Stellantis, Ford, GM—pretty much everybody is getting a taste of a major supply-chain shortcoming, and needless to say, it's bad for business.

But just because vehicles need chips to be delivered doesn't mean you have to stop making 'em altogether. Case-in-point, Ford is still making trucks; it's just making them without the necessary bits, holding them until the chips finally come in, and then shipping them out to dealers. Ford is doing this with what looks like thousands of vehicles, and you can see the results from space.

The Drive obtained satellite images of Kentucky Speedway, posted above, which paint a pretty clear picture. There are thousands of trucks at the facility awaiting chips. You can see the progression, particularly in the righthand lots; the first photo in the set of three is dated April 18 of this year while the second is from April 26. The third and final shot is a more recent view captured on May 1.

There's not just one specific type of pickup being held here, either. There are Super Duty trucks in virtually every configuration just waiting to get sent out once they're completed. When it comes to which vehicles Ford decides to produce, clearly they don't really have the ability to discriminate anymore.

We contacted the Dearborn automaker to see what it had to say, and it tracks with what you've read so far. A spokesperson said that the company is "making the most of our available semiconductor allocation and will continue finding unique solutions around the world so we can provide as many high-demand vehicles as possible to our customers and dealers." The spokesperson continued to explain that the vehicles at the Kentucky Speedway would be held for "a number of weeks" before they could be completed and then shipped out from the facility, but not before quality checks were completed.

The Super Duties seen here are manufactured at Ford's Kentucky Truck Plant in Louisville, roughly an hour away from the racetrack in Sparta.



In normal times, the track can accommodate as many as 107,000 people, which is why there's so much available parking in the first place. It's worth noting that Amazon is reportedly also storing a large number of empty trailers there—those obviously do not belong to Ford. The claim that the speedway is making a "million dollars a month" storing the vehicles and trailers could not be verified.

Of course, it's unclear when any of this is going to be resolved. The chip shortage is still a big issue for automakers and just another one of the pandemic-era problems that might stick around for a while. Until those problems are resolved, expect finding the perfect new car to remain difficult.

<more pics and video at the link>

I would not want a truck weathered for several months. Interior engine parts will rust. The interior of the axle will rust. The sun will destroy dashes, seats, etc. And all for some electronic gee-whiz nonsense?

I hope by May 2022 this is all over. That's when I need to buy a truck.

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:

I know the feeling. My last car payment was January of 1979.

I've paid cash for cars since then.

The last time I made a car payment was... never.

I get the idea that if I want something with more options, I just add them myself.

I keep getting stuff from dealerships telling me that they'll pay thousands over blue book value for my truck. Okay, then what? I'm supposed to buy you're ridiculously overpriced truck, of which there's only three on the lot? All of this is similar to the current housing market, you can make a small fortune but then your faced with insane home prices.

quote:

Same things going to happen with the new Bronco, it's presold for two years,

All this seems to move the 'new vehicle' actual-product here-n-now available market ever more into the 'future commodity' hypothetical bitcoin-style market.

Or am I misreading something?

I bought a 2020 Ranger 11 months ago, the dealer is offering via email what I paid on an upscale bigger truck. No thanks. What you sold me last time is actually working even better than I expected.

quote:

All this seems to move the 'new vehicle' actual-product here-n-now available market ever more into the 'future commodity' hypothetical bitcoin-style market.

Or am I misreading something?

That's basically it, The TV auctions of MECUM and BJ are moving hard to find new vehicles at big markups, You cannot get a new Corvette or Bronco, allocation is sold out, Corvette production was stopped as they change to 2022 models.

People are paying big money for the C8 and as soon as the new Bronco starts hitting the street you'll see them on these auction TV shows.

quote:

Originally posted by sigspecops:
I keep getting stuff from dealerships telling me that they'll pay thousands over blue book value for my truck.

They're just trying to get you into the dealership. Nothing more. They know they're not gonna sell you anything over the phone or Internet. Once you're physically there, they go to work on you. They may very well pay thousands over book for your car. But they'll try to sell you another. I highly doubt they'll pay you over book for your car and let you walk out of there without another car.