But But But it's For the Children.

I grew up in NJ. The school district I went to had many many high school teachers that should have retired many many years before I got there.
The only reason they were there (I was told this person)was because of the money.
I know there were and still are many teachers who are very dedicated to teaching and do it because they love to teach.
When my father in law retired 15 years ago after teaching high school for 30 years he was making over $70,000 a year. When school administrators are making $150,000 plus a year this is why school taxes are so high.
When pensions for life with full benefits are more than the average yearly salary than the average working person this is why your taxes are so high.
I am not saying teachers should not be paid well for what they do I just think in some cases we are not getting our moneys worth.
By the way I have no children.
When I lived in NJ we had a neighbor who could not afford to retire because of the high, school taxes in the town we lived in. They were in their late 60s to early 70s. We moved 18 years ago and they probably worked till they passed away.
I am not sure what the answer is and I am sure we have many teachers on our forum. I am in no way picking on them. I am just posting on a town I grew up in many years ago.
I am not sure what the answers are but it cant keep up forever.

I'm in the minority on this one, I guess.

My wife and I have never had kids and are too old to start now....but I really don't have any problem with paying taxes for supporting public education. We are already leaving the kids with a mess. I can't see how limiting funding for education will help.

Now...how the funds are spent ( misspent) by the education administrators ...I have lots of opinions about that.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by flashguy:
The argument has always been that Society as a whole benefits from an educated populace, and I suppose there is merit to that line of thought. However, the state of public "education" has reached a point where the merit is dubious.

flashguy

That is the argument. And while public education isn't what we hope it would be, is there really any serious argument that it is better than the education a lot of people would give their children left to their own devices, which is none or almost none?

Even though public education is not good, or even bad, it is better than no education, which is what a lot of people would get. And those people would be even more a drain than they already are.

And the reason it is not what it should be is the lack of competition. I would recommend that you read Milton Friedman's "The Role of Government in Education" written in 1955 that advocated the use of vouchers to separate the need for education from the delivery.

Friedman on Education

quote:

And while public education isn't what we hope it would be, is there really any serious argument that it is better than the education a lot of people would give their children left to their own devices, which is none or almost none?

Even though public education is not good, or even bad, it is better than no education, which is what a lot of people would get. And those people would be even more a drain than they already are.

I disagree.
I think the majority of people want what they think is best for their children.
Sure, some would rather drive a new car or spend everything on hookers and blow... but I think most people, given a choice, would do what is best for their children.

Well I can tell you've never worked at a school

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

And while public education isn't what we hope it would be, is there really any serious argument that it is better than the education a lot of people would give their children left to their own devices, which is none or almost none?

Even though public education is not good, or even bad, it is better than no education, which is what a lot of people would get. And those people would be even more a drain than they already are.

I disagree.
I think the majority of people want what they think is best for their children.
Sure, some would rather drive a new car or spend everything on hookers and blow... but I think most people, given a choice, would do what is best for their children.

quote:

Originally posted by jc91087:
Well I can tell you've never worked at a school

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

And while public education isn't what we hope it would be, is there really any serious argument that it is better than the education a lot of people would give their children left to their own devices, which is none or almost none?

Even though public education is not good, or even bad, it is better than no education, which is what a lot of people would get. And those people would be even more a drain than they already are.

I disagree.
I think the majority of people want what they think is best for their children.
Sure, some would rather drive a new car or spend everything on hookers and blow... but I think most people, given a choice, would do what is best for their children.

+1

My issue is not with good teachers, but with the louses that permeated the school district I grew up in. Specifically the teachers who cried the blues at budget time that the kiddies needed textbooks, then made sure the money went to salaries and benefits and not the textbooks.

I'm old enough to understand when I'm being sold a $4 loaf of bread for $79. I want quality education without being held over a barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by jc91087:
Well I can tell you've never worked at a school

I teach part time and I served for 6 years as a member of the Board of Education for my local school district.
But... I sent my kids to private schools. So I've seen education from almost every angle.

quote:

No Kids, No School Taxes

The way it should be everywhere. It's akin to the consumption tax or user fee, ya know. Why should I have to pay for your shit, if I have no use it?

I believe we should all contribute to the betterment of our society by supporting a school system.

The brokeness and ineffectivity of that school system is a separate issues that we should fix.

Maybe private school tuition could be an income tax credit, or something, but I don't think anyone should not be paying anything for the education of our future generations.

quote:

Originally posted by Crom:
I believe we should all contribute to the betterment of our society by supporting a school system.

Gosh, such pretty-sounding words. Here's a few words that don't come with their own Unicorn:

Get your freaking hand out of my pocket.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by Crom:
I believe we should all contribute to the betterment of our society by supporting a school system.

Gosh, such pretty-sounding words. Here's a few words that don't come with their own Unicorn:

Get your freaking hand out of my pocket.

Just curious, you don't like school taxes, or you don't want to pay any taxes?

I'm ok with school taxes, but I think I should be able to direct those to a school of my choice if I choose to send my kids to private school.

Having said that, I expect accountability (which is where the whole thing falls to shit).

Serious question.

Is there any precedent for a modern society doing this? I’d like to know how any society will deal or have dealt with those who won’t, or can’t, properly educate their children. Are those children ignored, with the later societal problems dealt with using other expensive programs, or will the state step in on the front end to ensure every child gets some form of education? Either way seems expensive.

I will air this complaint here. I’m sick of hearing teachers complaining about their annual pay relative to the private sector, while ignoring the fact that they work only 9 months out of the year, get every holiday off, have two weeks at Christmas and another week at Easter, never seem to work past 4pm, and have nearly unlimited job security. Oh, but you must do lesson plans and grade papers? So what, a lot of jobs require after hours free work. My compliance time for mandatory government paperwork would make the teacher’s unions lose their mind if it was imposed on them. Back when I was still working in the private sector, I went to work at 0800 and frequently stayed until 1930. Eleven hour days were the norm, and I was paid on salary. But you didn’t see me at the legislature every year bitching like I was being robbed.

This is my real beef. Not the taxes per se, but the waste and the sense of entitlement in public education.

quote:

Originally posted by Sailor1911:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by flashguy:
The argument has always been that Society as a whole benefits from an educated populace, and I suppose there is merit to that line of thought. However, the state of public "education" has reached a point where the merit is dubious.

flashguy

That is the argument. And while public education isn't what we hope it would be, is there really any serious argument that it is better than the education a lot of people would give their children left to their own devices, which is none or almost none?

Even though public education is not good, or even bad, it is better than no education, which is what a lot of people would get. And those people would be even more a drain than they already are.

And the reason it is not what it should be is the lack of competition. I would recommend that you read Milton Friedman's "The Role of Government in Education" written in 1955 that advocated the use of vouchers to separate the need for education from the delivery.

Friedman on Education

I don't disagree with that. But I think killing off public education entirely would be worse. I'd love for competition - charters, vouchers, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

I disagree.
I think the majority of people want what they think is best for their children.
Sure, some would rather drive a new car or spend everything on hookers and blow... but I think most people, given a choice, would do what is best for their children.

I think there would be a significant number that wouldn't educate their kids in any meaningful way. I don't mean a majority, but enough to cause the rest of us terrible problems. I am not as optimistic as you on that.

They want the best for their kids, but they don't know what it is, how to get it, or have the discipline to make it actually happen

quote:

Originally posted by fwbulldog:
I'm ok with school taxes, but I think I should be able to direct those to a school of my choice if I choose to send my kids to private school.

Having said that, I expect accountability (which is where the whole thing falls to shit).

Why do you think you should be able to direct your money to where you want it, AND think you should be able to direct other people's money where you want it?

According to the 2010 census, there were 105.5M households in the US and 30.1M households had children under 18. Perhaps the 70% of the households want to direct their money so your children go to the cheapest school in the district. Even better, the 70% of households could and should vote that the 30% of households with children under 18 pay their own way.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:
I don't use police services, why should I pay for them?
I don't use the library why should I pay? No food stamps why should I pay?
Any one supporting this nonsense see a trend?

I see police services differently than the others. The police power is an extension of the sovereignty of the State. It is a theoretical monopoly on the use of force (other than self-defense) and it is non-negotiable.

Other government services are different. They were voted into existence, and they can be voted out of existence. Before the "progressive" era, beginning around 1900 or so, most schools were private and voluntary. Ever hear of a volunteer fire department? The same is true with private lending libraries, usually operated by churches or schools.

When enough people decide they aren't getting what they are paying for, they have the power to change things back in the direction of freedom and individual responsibility, and away from socialism.

Actually you are wrong. Much of the budget is for "Equal Rights". Appointed judges make a decision and too F'ing bad you have to pay for it. HUD anyone?

quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:

quote:

Originally posted by fwbulldog:
I'm ok with school taxes, but I think I should be able to direct those to a school of my choice if I choose to send my kids to private school.

Having said that, I expect accountability (which is where the whole thing falls to shit).

Why do you think you should be able to direct your money to where you want it, AND think you should be able to direct other people's money where you want it?

According to the 2010 census, there were 105.5M households in the US and 30.1M households had children under 18. Perhaps the 70% of the households want to direct their money so your children go to the cheapest school in the district. Even better, the 70% of households could and should vote that the 30% of households with children under 18 pay their own way.

How many of those 70% HAD kids in schools? Or consumed the "Free" education at those schools themselves. But hey they got theirs, screw everyone else. Lets can Social Security too. Why am I paying for SS? Never got anything from it, likely never will. And no you are not getting the money you put in, back. The collecting generation is getting the money the current workers are putting in.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

I disagree.
I think the majority of people want what they think is best for their children.
Sure, some would rather drive a new car or spend everything on hookers and blow... but I think most people, given a choice, would do what is best for their children.

I think there would be a significant number that wouldn't educate their kids in any meaningful way. I don't mean a majority, but enough to cause the rest of us terrible problems. I am not as optimistic as you on that.

They want the best for their kids, but they don't know what it is, how to get it, or have the discipline to make it actually happen

Or, because of their upbringing or lack of education themselves don't have the wherewithal to accomplish that despite their desire.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by Sailor1911:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by flashguy:
The argument has always been that Society as a whole benefits from an educated populace, and I suppose there is merit to that line of thought. However, the state of public "education" has reached a point where the merit is dubious.

flashguy

That is the argument. And while public education isn't what we hope it would be, is there really any serious argument that it is better than the education a lot of people would give their children left to their own devices, which is none or almost none?

Even though public education is not good, or even bad, it is better than no education, which is what a lot of people would get. And those people would be even more a drain than they already are.

And the reason it is not what it should be is the lack of competition. I would recommend that you read Milton Friedman's "The Role of Government in Education" written in 1955 that advocated the use of vouchers to separate the need for education from the delivery.

Friedman on Education

I don't disagree with that. But I think killing off public education entirely would be worse. I'd love for competition - charters, vouchers, etc.

I believe that public education delivery as it is structured today would die under it's own weight were there a voucher system put in place. Not saying that all public education delivery would go away but survival of the fittest would prevail and those schools that are or can adapt to deliver a high quality product would thrive and those that can't would die on the vine.