I don't know I've ever seen that mentioned. Of course we all know we and allies used .50 BMG rounds. But if the enemies used 8mm or 7.7 rounds, they were at a serious disadvantage. Sure, we used .30-06 for our light machine guns. But what did the enemy air forces use? The .50 BMG was very effective, much more so than the .30 caliber guns.

Heavy machine gun the equivalent of our Browning M2 in .50 caliber? I don't recall them ever having any. Some German aircraft sent against Allied bombers went straight to a cannon firing explosive shells, in an upward-firing arrangement known as "Schräge Musik." British, either, unless they used our equipment. Interesting question.

If by "enemy air forces" you mean aircraft, both Germany and Japan used a mix, usually a pair of light 7mm-ish in the fuselage above the engine and 20mm cannons in the wing. Germany even equipped the Bf109s and FW190s with gun pods under the wings with larger ordnance to try and bust up allied bomber formations.

Both the Germans and Japanese used 20mm cannons in most of the roles that the US would use 50 caliber in. The Germans did make a 13mm avation MG called the MG 131, and Breda made a 12.7mm HMG. The Japanese built a gun called the Ho-103, which was based on the US M1921 Browing aircraft gun.

MG 131

Thanks, SgtGold. I was not aware of that gun.

quote:

MG 131

Interesting. Never heard of that one before.

Japan had the 13.2 mm Type 93 (Hotchkiss 1929)

As stated, the Germans relied on 20mm autocannons for many roles for which the US used .50 caliber HMGs, both in the air and on the ground.

However, they did produce some 13mm (MG 131) and 15mm (MG 151) aerial HMGs for aircraft use.

And on the ground, while the Germans did not field a large caliber ground-based HMG of their own, they did make use of captured examples, including the Soviet DShK, Czech ZB 60, US M2, and French Mle 1930.

This Japanese ace, Kasai Tomokazu, describes the use of four 20 mm cannons on the Shiden-Kai fighter plane...

"Dut dut dut"

https://youtu.be/hxaj_MQ2Svw

Edit: adding a Japanese doc on the Shiden-Kai. Both sides interviewed...

https://youtu.be/Wc3Xj0Eqa4Q

^^^

That was a fun interview to watch. Thank you for that link.

Last photograph is interesting, usually in a twin mount the two barrels are parallel. This arrangement appears to be some sort of lead-lag or maybe cuts the wings off so the fuselage falls? Maybe just the perspective of the photograph? Wonder how stabilizers the boxes under the trip are?

In photos of the the Mle 1930 in its dual- and quad-mount configurations, the barrels are almost always parallel.

However, here's another shot of a quad mount Mle 1930, with similar staggered barrels.

Although in both photos, the guns are positioned in damaged/destroyed areas. So it's possible that these two are simply misaligned due to damage.

Interesting photographs, never seen them before.

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:
Heavy machine gun the equivalent of our Browning M2 in .50 caliber? I don't recall them ever having any. British, either, unless they used our equipment.

The Brits did use American M2s towards the middle/end of the war, but they also had some of their own large caliber HMGs during WW2.

These included the .50 caliber Vickers:



(This wasn't chambered in .50 BMG, but the shorter 12.7x81mmSR.)


They also produced the Czech ZB 60 in 15×104mm under license as the 15mm BESA.




Both of these were used primarily to arm armored cars and tanks in the early war period, and also as anti-aircraft guns.

Humber armored car with 15mm BESA:


Guy armored car with .50 Vickers:


Matilda Infantry Tank Mk. I with .50 Vickers:


Vickers Light Tank Mk. VI-B with .50 Vickers:


Vickers Light Tank Mk. VI-C with 15mm BESA:



.50 Vickers naval AA quad mount:


.50 Vickers AA dual mount:

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
As stated, the Germans relied on 20mm autocannons for many roles for which the US used .50 caliber HMGs, both in the air and on the ground.

However, they did produce some 13mm (MG 131) and 15mm (MG 151) aerial HMGs for aircraft use.

Towards the end of the war, a lot of those aircraft guns were also used in a ground role as the Luftwaffe was chased from the skies, and new aircraft were mostly equipped with 20 and 30 mm cannon. Makeshift mounts for the MG 131 were typically very rough.



The MG 151 had already been developed into the 151/20 firing lower-velocity 20 mm munition by late 1941, and most guns were rebuilt to that version. The French kept using it as a helicopter gun for a long time post-war, including new-built specimens. Vektor of South Africa also made their own locally-built GA-1 variant. The 20 x 82 mm ammunition is still used as an option in the Denel NTW-20 anti-materiel rifle, and the Indian Vidhwansak derived from it.

The MG 151/20 triple AA mount was fairly widespread late in the war.

But does it werf the flammen?

No, it gewehrs Maschinen.

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne:
Towards the end of the war, a lot of those aircraft guns were also used in a ground role… Makeshift mounts for the MG 131 were typically very rough.

Interesting. Are you sure that was a mount intended for ground combat use? Or was it a mount for training, or for testing after repair/rebuild?

For example, here's a MG131 in a testing mount.



The reason I ask is two-fold.

1) The gun pictured in your photo lacks any sights.

And more importantly:

2) Unlike the lighter aerial MGs, which could be easily stripped from planes and thrust into the ground combat role by rigging up a bipod/mount and stock, the MG 131's ammo is electrically primed. You can't mechanically or manually fire the gun. Therefore, it would have required something like a nearby running vehicle or generator, or at the very least a large battery pack, for ground combat use.

But you do very occasionally see them rigged up for antiaircraft use in fixed positions with electrical supply. So I guess I could see them getting thrust into fixed defensive use, at facilities where an electrical supply was available.

Here's a MG131 on a fabricated AA tripod, situated at what looks like a warehouse or airfield hangar. Note the electrical cord, and the attached AA sights.

Infanteriewaffen gestern by Reiner Lidschun and Günter Wollert (Berlin, 1991) has a depiction of this type of makeshift mount, described as a Model 131 aircraft MG provisionally rebuilt for ground combat. It also shows something that might be a battery placed on the lower right side of the mount, certainly too small for an ammo box. Looking at the photo I posted again, it's actually visible on the far side, as it is in the center of the tripod in your last picture.

This site lists the variant MG 131 G with manual charging and trigger, right-hand feed like the A variant, but with a plug socket in the receiver's contact plate for electric ignition. Also the H variant with left-hand feed, both intended for provisional use "e. g. in mounts D 30/131 und LL-G131". There are pictures of various mounts and turrets, including this one which looks like it's for training or testing on the ground, but clearly different from the one above.