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Cat Whisperer |
I need a little advice.. 4 or 5 years ago I quit my job as the sales team lead for a large-ish company that manufactures exhaust components for exotic cars to start my own business. Through inexperience owning a business, and a truly despicable human being of an employee, I blew through a large amount of money in a short time, and closed up shop. 6 months or so after that I was approached by the "money partner" in a well known shop to come on board and run his shop.. we agreed on a salary, and I ended up with a stake in the business, so it was me and three partners. The two partners ended up being pretty shady, stealing, taking jobs in they shouldnt have, and drove the company into the ground in short order, at which point me and the other partners stopped taking regular paychecks. It got to the point that me and the "money guy" who initially hired me pushed the other two partners out and literally fired everyone at the shop. We brought in a new partner that is also a tuner (computer tuning for cars), and all of his "guys" mechanics, etc. I'm still not taking a paycheck regularly, and it's gotten to the point that my wife (who has been INCREDIBLY supportive through all of this) is getting to the end of her rope carrying all our bills, etc. When I do/did take a paycheck I was making very good money, but at this point I am around $200,000-$250,000 behind in pay, with a lot of CC debt. My wife is of the opinion that the "money partner" should be paying me out of his pocket, but he's my partner, not my boss, and my thinking is just because he has money, he isn't responsible for paying me when he is also not getting paid and has invested a LOT of money into this place. I kept the relationship good with the owner of the place I quit years ago, and could always go back there, but the work environment was toxic, and I would feel like I had just thrown away the last 4-5 years only to end up back at the place I left. The industry I am in is pretty niche, and I think my current shop will eventually get back above water and I will start making good money again, but when do you call it quits? I am incredibly good at selling, and building relationships with my clients, so I'm sure I would do well in almost any sales environment, but I am also a college drop out (I liked working more than studying), so my options are definitely a little more limited. My wife is a lawyer that wants to have kids, but I have been pushing it off until I can figure out what the hell I am doing with my life! I'm 32 years old, so I'm still pretty young, but definitely not getting younger. What do you guys suggest? I know advice online is worth what you pay for it, but you guys have also helped me sort out some big issues in the past, and I've never gotten bad advice here. ------------------------------------ 135 ├┼┼╕ 246R | ||
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Member |
What would you do if you were not married? We all have dreams, but dreams don't pay the bills. Dan | |||
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| Member |
Lawyer, now, to see if you can get out and not owe employees, etc. I mean this the good way-is it possible that your technically proficient in your field, but not really a good business guy? Don't answer, just evaluate yourself. You can fix it if it's true, in fairly short order. Last comment-partnerships suck. LLC if you gotta team up with someone. I have observed over the years that "money men" become money men by finding people to screw. | |||
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| Member |
First off, if you want to have kids then start having kids. There will never be a perfect time. If the business prospects are looking good now with the bad partners out and a new crew and good future, I'd stay with it. It looks like you already endured the worst of it. Also, can't the management "job" be separate from the partner aspect? Does the money partner perform a salaried function as well? Couldn't you negotiate to start taking a small salary as the manager (but no "profit" as the partner, 'cause there isn't any yet). “People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik Be harder to kill: https://preparefit.ck.page | |||
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| You don’t fix faith, River. It fixes you.  |
As you evaluate your options, be sure to distinguish between the soft definition of a partner and the legal definition of a partner. Your exit-vs-'stick it out' options change depending on your legal status and obligations. It matters whether you are a legal partner in a partnership or a guy with a slice of an LLC or C-Corp. ---------------------------------- "If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism.." - Thomas Sowell | |||
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| Cat Whisperer |
I'd likely still be at the original job.. Heidi pushed me to pursue starting my own business because she saw how unhappy I was.
How would I know the answer to that? I'm a decent manager, although I don't like managing people, I'm good at paying the bills on time when money is there, what makes someone a good business guy?
It could be separate, but if there isn't money to take as a partner, there isn't money to add myself to the payroll either. ------------------------------------ 135 ├┼┼╕ 246R | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process  |
Maybe you are good at selling, but not so good at “managing.” Managing, as in CEOing, can be a tricky business with lots of ways to mess up. I noticed during my time in free private enterprise that investors do not always respect mere talent, but more often respect others with money in the game. You not having any is a hindrance. You got up to the plate, had some good hacks and fouled out. Maybe it will be better luck next time. You are young, with plenty of opportunities ahead. I tend to think you would be wise to go back to what you are good at, rebuild your capital, get out of debt, take care of family issues. If you do all that, other chances will come around. As Warren Buffett once out it, “Both our operating and investment experience cause us to conclude that turnarounds seldom turn," Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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A Grateful American |
No matter what you do tomorrow, you did not "throw away" the past 4-5 years. You simply went to "hard school", and you are/will be better for it, if you do not let it become a toxic place in your mind. Failure is often that pain that says, "move forward!". That said, I will offer that in any future (or if you stay in this arrangement), that you get a business plan and operations policies down in writing and make them legal part of the company/partnership charter. Things like, (loosely) who is doing what "work", who is responsible for what, and expectations of each party, and what can/will be done for failures. An exit plan, for the time that the partnership must end, due to death, illness, disability, dishonesty, lawsuit, retirements, sale, acquisition and anything else that can be expected or a possibility. For example, one party might do X amount of physical labor/creation of product, and or X number hours of sales with a range of sales income produced. Another partner might put forth certain amount of money or cover costs as a "loaning service" to carry over short income months, and also be involved in X hours of management duties. The point is, each person has commitment to effort, responsibilities to the partners/company and there has to be accountability in all of it. Too often, businesses fail because the "partnership" is not defined and adhered to, with real legal and contractual mechanisms in place to help ensure all parties are being equitable and honest. A lawyer is a must. Not sure if your wife is in a field that relates, and no idea if you are able to salvage the partnership you have going on now. It may be that the partnership agree to dissolve and reform with a new plan, and that would include the investment of your time having value to be considered and everything. Such things happen everyday in business, and a lot of companies have become very successful in spite, and even because of such "failure". Business and marriage are very similar, and when one or both lie, cheat, steal or do damaging things, all will suffer, and the relationship likely will fail and fail hard. And it is hard to "un-fuck" a reputation, so guard your's by making sure the people you partner with, are accountable either by being good and honest people who will make and abide by the rules, or that you have mechanisms that help you get out of the business by legal means with as little damage as possible. There is a lot more, but hope that helps some. I hate to see you in such a place, your posts over the years show you have done some remarkable and enjoyable things, and you seem to have that drive that is much needed in the world of innovation and inspiration. Likely a partnership is how you will go forward. There are good people with money who know and appreciate the type work you can bring, you just need to find that and set a solid groundwork to build on. I truly wish you the best going forward. "the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב! | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
That is my general opinion as well. Take all that you have (hopefully) learned and maybe set a goal to doing it "right" the next time around - be it 3/5/10 years in the future? | |||
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| Cat Whisperer |
There's truth to that for sure. I don't think that's the case with him and I, but it could be. He comes from a lot of money and doesn't have a lot of genuine people in his life (think everyone around him at this business and his personal life have their hands out), so I think he looks at me as more of one of very few people he actually trusts. I could be wrong though.
That's a good point, maybe I'm having a case of tunnel vision. ------------------------------------ 135 ├┼┼╕ 246R | |||
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| Oh stewardess, I speak jive.  |
Learn to do the fabrication work yourself, or save your own money earned elsewhere such that you don't need partners with money. You and your money and sales experience and one fabricator ought to be able to kill it. Being sales only isn't enough to make it, IME. | |||
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| Member |
Family first. You tried now have kids and enjoy life. That's what I'd do if I had a supportive wife. 4 or 5 years- You're not amazon and can't live on negative cash flow. ____________________________________________________ The butcher with the sharpest knife has the warmest heart. | |||
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| Cat Whisperer |
Thanks Mike! I'm going to read over this a few more times to make sure I understand and absorb it all. I think the issue here (one of them) is that I am doing too much and not able to do any one thing 100%.. Taxes, sales, customer service, social media, parts ordering, making appointments. We hired me an "assistant" but I'm terrible at delegating things to him because I don't trust he will do "it" as good as I will. ------------------------------------ 135 ├┼┼╕ 246R | |||
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| MEMBER |
There is a lot of truth in this. In fact, having a kid might help you focus, realizing that money talks and dreams are just dreams... | |||
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Chip away the stone |
Maybe I missed it...what trajectory is the business currently on? I understand you're not taking a regular paycheck, but is the business steadily improving? When do you expect it to be profitable to the point you can take a regular check, or is that simply not in sight? | |||
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| Cat Whisperer |
it is improving.. the new staff are amazing, I wish I'd found them a year ago. To answer your question, it's hard to say. This SHOULD be our slow part of the year, but we have a shop full of cars. I'm really not sure when I would be able to pay myself regularly again, we were so far under water that just getting caught up will take time. ------------------------------------ 135 ├┼┼╕ 246R | |||
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| Member |
I take it there is no operating agreement? Probably didn’t hire an attorney to set everything up? Being self employed and an entrepreneur is great and I had to fail at it once in order to get it right the second time. A $5,000 to $10,000 investment in a good business attorney (good to find one who is or has an accountant on staff) to set up a small business correctly is the best money I ever spent. If you have no protection in an existing op agreement go find an attorney to protect you by advising the best way to bail and move on a wiser man. | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process |
Even better than thorough and comprehensive partnership agreements is “the seamless web of deserved trust” as Charles Munger puts it. Those are rare and hard to find, but worth looking for. It’s easier to find such people when you are one. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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Firearms Enthusiast |
Think its time to listen to your wife. As a unit you two have invested many years and lots of money with no end in sight. Its time to move on to the next chapter of life. | |||
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| Cat Whisperer |
There was no operating agreement... I'm fairly certain the original partner would let me walk away if I ended up wanting to do that.
I guess I need to figure out if that means going back to the original place I left, or seeking something new. I think I just feel a little bit trapped knowing I am good at something, but a lot of employers want a college degree. ------------------------------------ 135 ├┼┼╕ 246R | |||
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