Can't find this info anywhere, was wondering if anyone here knew.


Also, does anyone by chance know if Federal agents like Secret Service or Air Marshals train to fire their DA/SA P229 from SA holstered? Been trying to find this info as well.

TYIA

Do you mean to ask if they carry a DA/SA chambered, cocked and holstered, or if they draw and thumb cock the pistol while presenting?

Because, both of those carry great risk of unintended firing, vs issue of accurate shot placement of a DA shot.

And I have trouble accepting it be a "policy" to carry in that condition.

Perhaps why you cannot find information on it.

I can’t answer the question either, but I’ll contribute to the drift by opining that most serious users of DA/SA handguns like Classic line SIGs practiced doing it the right way: the first shot was fired in the double action mode rather than carrying the gun cocked or manually cocking before shooting.

When my agency issued DA/SA P220 pistols I placed great stress on members’ becoming proficient with firing the first shot in the DA mode. No one ever attempted to do anything else, but if they had it would have been quashed immediately. And some of us took things a step further. Shortly after I acquired my first SIG, a 357 P229, I had it converted to double action only, and I adopted DAK triggers after they were introduced. I never felt handicapped by double action triggers, and even when shooting someone’s DA/SA pistol to check its zero, I fired all shots in the DA mode because I was more accurate that way.

And although it was a limited experiment, one time I had a long line of P220 shooters fire groups all single action and then all shots double action: the result? As a DA fan, anyone can probably figure out why I mentioned it here.

It would, however, be interesting to know the answer to the original question.

Oh, yeah, the second question. I never thought to pay strict attention to how the Air Marshals were shooting when I was around them, but I probably would have noticed if they carried their P229s cocked or manually cocked them before firing. That’s especially true of the one who was in my NRA LE handgun instructor course 20+ years ago. Had he been doing either I believe the class instructors would have had words with him.

Jack Wilson is/was a firearms instructor, and has a background in law enforcement as a reserve deputy. The P229 was his favorite carry gun, so I'm certain he trained with it extensively.

The video clip of his actions is in the link, a clip I have seen a number of times the day of the shooting. It shows his draw, and IMO, nothing indicates to me that he cocked the hammer back into SA mode. He fired only one shot, IMO in DA mode.

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/...story/#axzz8RehKPhNG

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And although it was a limited experiment, one time I had a long line of P220 shooters fire groups all single action and then all shots double action: the result? As a DA fan, anyone can probably figure out why I mentioned it here.

I'll have to try that sometime.

I read that his gun was chambered in 357 sig.

He popped that zit from about 9 rows of pews back. At my church, a row of pews is easily 2.5-3 feet from seat back to the next seat back. Plus a few feet where bad guy was. So 25feet at the closest to 30+ feet or more on a 2 way range after he had just seen 2 friends take shotgun blasts. That adrenaline and everything and he nails an ~8 inch head shot on one shot. Amazing.

Also amazing that he saw the freak and let the video guys to focus on him. I know there’s some security folks in my church and i also see regular parishioners ccw sometimes printing.

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Also, does anyone by chance know if Federal agents like Secret Service or Air Marshals train to fire their DA/SA P229 from SA holstered? Been trying to find this info as well.

I was deployed with an air marshal in the USCG reserves. He came thru our range and he used a P229 DAK in 40 with the CG, but his duty gun was a SIG DA/SA in 357SIG. Most sailors had a hard time transitioning with the DAK trigger and scores across the service showed it. But Mr. Air Marshal shot the center out of a TranstarII target.

100% shooter, all the time from 25yds and in. When we got to talking to him, (he was a fellow fire arms instructor) he said he had unlimited ammo at work and they were expected to shoot weekly. He could shoot the DA at 25 yds and center punch it every time.

I can’t remember his name, I remember him being a complete dick, but he could shoot.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MikeinNC,

One of OpSpec's instructors is also instructor for Air Marshals.

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Also, does anyone by chance know if Federal agents like Secret Service or Air Marshals train to fire their DA/SA P229 from SA holstered? Been trying to find this info as well.

Secret Service and by extension the Air Marshals (since almost all their leaders came from Secret Service at one point) all used Sig 229 DAK....so there isn't an option to shoot the pistol in single action.

I picked up a trade in Sig P229 DAK in .40 cal and switched it over to .357sig. I like the DAK system in the .40 and .357sig, it slows me down just enough to put real accurate double taps.

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by extension the Air Marshals (since almost all their leaders came from Secret Service at one point) all used Sig 229 DAK....so there isn't an option to shoot the pistol in single action.

False.
FAM’s 229s were DA/SA.

And FAMs are taught to shoot DA/SA.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Snake207,

Learning to shoot a DA/SA pistol proficiently is not difficult once you understand how to properly prep a trigger.

While a fed and a firearms instructor, I attended 4 separate instructor courses at FLETC, Glynco, GA. The class was often a spread across the board of agencies including an air Marshall in one refresher. While most of us shot often and well enough (perhaps not as much as we would like due to a combination of budgetary and needing to patrol reasons), the air Marshall had a much smaller list of duties and consequently had a LARGE shooting budget as well as plenty of time to practice precision shooting in tight places with teeny-tiny margins of error.

The Marshall in my refresher class was a Cracker Jack shot with his P229 .357 and shot rings around the rest of us. He never once cocked into single action to do it. It was pure muscle memory and Fahrvergnugen with his duty weapon from copious amounts of shooting. He told us his monthly allotment of ammo he was expected to shoot- I forget the amount, but I remember it being a jaw dropping amount.

when I first watched the video I criticized the shot and thought he just got lucky then in retrospect realized how well trained the guy was. He basically had a split second to make a decision.. not only had the dirt bag stopped to take aim but people in the pews were jumping up and moving... he had one choice if you watch it... one head shot. I hate to be morbid but it would be nice to see what that one loan 357 Sig round did to the guys head.

Also, the other lesson learned in the video... practice and split seconds matter... the second guy shot fumbled his draw from the 6 0'clock and that cost him his life.

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Also, the other lesson learned in the video... practice and split seconds matter... the second guy shot fumbled his draw from the 6 0'clock and that cost him his life

He didn’t fumble the draw, per se.

He tried to outdraw a drawn gun, and slowly at that.
Plus, he never got off the “X”.
That is what cost him his life.

The bad guy waited until he saw the gun come out before shooting him.

He was shooting a DAK P229 in .357 Sig....

Jack Wilson had training, he reacted and did what his training taught him to do but I think the headshot was a lucky shot. In contrast, the Second Gentleman murdered while drawing his gun is an unfortunate case study.

When humans are faced with crisis we go through a mental process, and how quickly we get through the process often times determines the outcome. The book, ‘The Unthinkable - Who survives when disaster strikes and why’ does a good job of laying out the process. I’ve heard fighter pilots describe it as OOPA (observe, orient, plan, and act), and if you can’t do that instinctively fast the consequences are dire. For us mere mortals, we deny, deliberate, decide, then act. It is often said that for those in that moment between deliberating and deciding time slows down. It goes something like this OMG this isn’t happening… wait this is really happening… I should draw my gun… shoot back. When you watch the video it appears the second murdered gentleman was in that stage following deliberation and deciding and appears to be moving in slow motion. We’ll never know, but in his mind he might have been moving fast. Contrast that with actions of Jack Wilson. He was proficiently trained and mentally ready for the events as they unfolded. His mind undoubtedly went through the same process, but was able to move through it at a very fast pace. I praise Mr Wilson and I am grateful for men who train like he did, but I think Mr Wilson might be the first to tell you that his lights out headshot was a fortunate shot and undoubtedly saved many lives. That turd would have been eliminated either way.

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Originally posted by kyoung:
He was shooting a DAK P229 in .357 Sig....

How do you know it was a DAK model?
I have seen many references to its being a 357 SIG P229, but not that it was a DAK.

Was that reported someplace?
(I am curious because a DAK 357 P229 was my carry gun for years and it would be interesting to know if there was another old guy just as smart as I. )

Some people regularly practice precision shots as part of their training, and I know shooters who can regularly hit a head-sized target very quickly. In a drill at 7 yards that I’m familiar with I have seen head-shot targets hit accurately and consistently in less than 1.5 seconds, and very often faster. Although I personally tend to be a little slower, it has been a long while since my time was more than 1.7 seconds or that I missed a 4×6 inch zone. That’s with gun at a ready position so a draw would add to the time and this target distance was evidently somewhat farther, but what reason do we have to believe it was a lucky shot? That is of course possible, but why that assumption?

One’s state of mind obviously makes as much, if not more, difference in such situations than shooter skill. As constantly gets discussed about the value of situational awareness for personal safety, the vast majority of people simply aren’t aware of what is happening around them most of the time. Even if they’re not at the stage of being so focused on their phone that they walk into signposts, anyone who pays the least attention to others around them will see ample evidence of that.

A guy who’s been authorized to be armed in a church can still be daydreaming about countless other subjects besides the incredibly unlikely possibility that someone will come in and start killing people at random. On the other hand, a tiny fraction will be thinking about just that possibility because that’s why they signed up for that position. I know from personal experience with protective services that it’s very difficult to maintain that awareness all the time, but it is possible. And sometimes the thought and the event coincide just by chance, so luck can play a part in outcomes.

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Originally posted by jsbcody:
Secret Service and by extension the Air Marshals (since almost all their leaders came from Secret Service at one point) all used Sig 229 DAK....so there isn't an option to shoot the pistol in single action.

The USSS has never issued the DAK. The Sig P229 has always been the DA/SA version. I cannot speak to the current FAM duty pistol, but when they issued the P229, it also was DA/SA, never DAK.

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Originally posted by Enron Exec:
Also, does anyone by chance know if Federal agents like Secret Service or Air Marshals train to fire their DA/SA P229 from SA holstered? Been trying to find this info as well.
TYIA

Neither agency trained, or permitted by policy, their Agents or FAMs to carry their pistols in SA mode. That is not how the gun was designed to be carried.

I know I saw a thread recently on how to embed a video here but can't find it now... here is a link to the actual shooting on my YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfeTv6vg2TE

Edit: just got word from YouTube that if you are under 18 years of age you can't watch this video.... I suspect that means anyone clicking on the link is going to have to jump through hoops to watch it. I figured out how to embed it but YouTube won't let me.... it seems.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Blume9mm,