Do you deal with them on a regular basis.
How problematic are they ?

Are they dangerous?

I'm not LEO, but I'll take to anybody anytime anywhere about whatever. When I see a LEO I'll always say hi how you doing?

If the LEO is friendly and replies, I'll just ask them Hey have you ever run across one of those dingbat sovereign citizens?

Once the LEO stops laughing I just shut up and let him/her roll with their humorous stories. Just smile and nod your head every 15-20 seconds.

Try it, it's quite educational and amusing.
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Not once in my career. I did run across a few “rainbow children” (hippie kids or gypsy kids) in eastern NC traveling on I95

I had a sovereign citizen client. I think they are a massive pain in the ass to the police because they will argue until they are blue in the face that they are "travelling" and not "driving," and won't show you their driver's license, if they even have one, but once you decide they have passively resisted long enough, you break the car window, drag them out and take them to jail. They don't fight, they just spout nonsense.

A few of them through my years in patrol. There is also The Black Nationalist Movement (or something like that). It's the same thing you just have to be Black.

They're a pain in the ass. If the offense is serious enough you might as well just get a few units with you and block in their car right from the get-go. Every time it turns into a pursuit

Yes. Most are dipshits who make up shit as they go.

Some can be quite dangerous. I refer to the father-son duo that murdered two W. Memphis AR officers about 10-15 years ago.

Not an LEO, but I had "issues" with two of these morons while working for Social Security. One guy came in and told us he shouldn't be subject to paying SS taxes because he was a sovereign citizen. We told him we don't handle tax collection issues (including SS tax collection) but nevertheless we could save him a trip to the IRS. He is subject to paying SS taxes. After going back and forth a little, the guy told my employee to go fuck himself, then left otherwise peacefully. Second guy told us to stop the child support deduction from his SS because as a sovereign citizen he didn't need to pay it. When he got really loud and asked to speak to the manager, I of course went to speak with him. When I told him the child support deduction would continue (until the order was lifted), he got really loud and shoved his chair across the room. This of course frightened other visitors to the office. He announced he wasn't leaving until I guaranteed that I would end the child support. He also said that he was going to plant a pipe bomb under my car if I didn't do it. Had to call the police. He would up doing a few weeks in the county jail.

Ask the young man in Farmington, Utah how his claim to be SC worked for him. Oh wait, you can't ask him because he lacks a pulse currently. He challenged officers who were more than patient with him. When they had to physically remove him, he brandished or pulled his gun on them and the filled him with lead. DRT.

Officer video of shooting armed Sovereign Citizen

I ran into one once in my carreer. He was in infirmary at Santa Rita jail hecause he refused his TB test. He kept wanting to tell me how he was "a traveler" "not a corporation" crap like that. He had a manifesto thing all typed up. He was pretty much harmless, but PROFOUNDLY stupid.

It was very common in Utah to encounter the Sovereign citizens. They used to be a real pain in the ass having to verbally spar with them so often. In my community we had a couple small neighborhoods that were almost entirely sovereigns.

They have their own idiot lawyers as well and they would file these odd "lawsuits" in their own so called courts and occasionally in our court system.

Most sovereigns here varied in their actual beliefs and some would register their car and have a DL but rarely would they identify themselves. They were easy since we could track down information and generally determine who they actually were.

The serious sovereigns refused to talk, answer questions and babbled on and on about their failed understanding of history. They loved trying to "educate" us on the law. It was always comical and hard to keep a straight face with them.

I recall a traffic stop at a busy intersection. I pulled over the serious type of sovereign and and he had no information to track down. I advised him of the violation for the stop and he refused to answer any questions. We would generally have to discuss our needs, the laws requirements to identify himself and so on. We would do this for ten to twenty minutes before calling a supervisor where they would do all of the above steps all over again. Then we could drag them out and arrested them for their violations. On this traffic stop the sovereign was kind of wimpy looking and he refused all questioning. As I was doing the dance an ambulance pulled up behind my police car by chance. I was already pulling out the black leather fighting gloves all cops have as I was speaking with the sovereign. The sovereign asked what the ambo was for? I told him "You." He got quiet, decided I was serious and handed me his state issued ID. Off to jail he went for multiple traffic and misdemeanor offenses.

More often than not we tended to use the sovereigns as a training tool. We would encounter one call all the new guys in training and often they could brake their first window and extract their first bad guy. We would get two new guys and let them take turns trying to get these idiots to give up their information. Then they could get to learn the use of force form, impound procedures, etc...

Most sovereigns aren't that dangerous though. I had to fight a couple and they resisted us but didn't assault us. Most would push until they hit that point when we were about to act and then they would give us their name or state issued ID. Never met a sovereign who didn't have ID. Plenty didn't want to give it to us but they all had ID. Most sovereigns had Utah plates in their car but not on it. Most don't realize that we can run Vin numbers and get registration info to figure out who they were.

Happily about a decade ago Utah changed their laws and we no longer needed a signature on the citation for misdemeanors and infractions. If we could figure out who they were and verify it with say their DL photo we could just hand them the citation without all the hassle. Then we took the served citation and did a PC statement and get them a warrant for the next time they were a problem.

Yes.

They’re incredibly irritating. Most of them are fairly harmless if tremendously misguided. A small percentage though are extremely dangerous. The problem is identifying which is which because they tend to spout the same nonsense.

They’re less of a problem in the age of body cams. Before we had video footage of the entire encounter we’d see a lot of nuisance complaints and lawsuits. Most of those don’t get past the initial review anymore. It’s still a nuisance, but much less time consuming.

I like the video of one of these morons where they put the K9 in with them. Funny they seem really willing to get out of the car then.

I'd like to see the police block all the doors of the car and let them know that once we put the dog in we're not letting you out for a certain amount of time.

K9s need the experience too!

Many years ago, I started working in a "co-ed" prison, male and female. We had a female sovereign who loved passive resistance. She was standing in front of me, and we were in front of a steel desk. She began a forward fall, intending, I believe, for me to catch her, and she could then allege sexual groping. I sidestepped rather quickly. I believe she spent three weeks in the hospital with that head injury. Fortunately, we were also standing right in front of a camera. BTW, this prison was a failed experiment by the US Bureau of Prisons. I promoted out as quickly as I could.

When they show up in court, without a lawyer, they make odd arguments that usually begin with telling the elected judge that he/she has no authority over them as the judge took the wrong oath of office. The prosecutor job becomes as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. Their court costs and fines become recovered if they are ever entitled to a state income tax refund. Black sub-group has a somewhat different approach and file long affidavits calling themselves Maurataians. Their success rate in court mirrors those of their white counterparts. Zippo, doink.

Useless and worthless. She'd probably screw up my ham sandwich. "Why? Why does the bread have to go on the outside of the sandwich??"

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I didn't have to deal with them on a regular basis. But I stopped one on a nice sunny day for a simple speed violation. He had an actual state license plate on the car, but would not provide a drivers license or other identification. Said he'd never had a DL, etc. Turned out his DL had been revoked. Worked through his obfuscations and ended up arresting him and impounding the car. Sent his adult son passenger walking.

Afterwards, I received a long typed letter listing all his constitutional rights I'd violated, and alleging I'd stolen his car. The letter further stated that if I didn't respond, I was agreeing to all his allegations.

I was not exactly surprised when the town attorney called me to let me know the guy had filed a legal action against me in court. It was handled by the town attorney, who went to court to get it quashed.

All in all, it was an interesting experience.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Useless and worthless. She'd probably screw up my ham sandwich. "Why? Why does the bread have to go on the outside of the sandwich??"

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Oh my God this bitch.

I've dealt with this woman when my wife and I ran a bar in Pascagoula MS call Thunders Tavern. She liked trying to drink under age with all her 'college' friends. Nice to see she's in the back of a cop car.

quote:

Originally posted by gw3971:
As I was doing the dance an ambulance pulled up behind my police car by chance. I was already pulling out the black leather fighting gloves all cops have as I was speaking with the sovereign. The sovereign asked what the ambo was for? I told him "You." He got quiet, decided I was serious and handed me his state issued ID. Off to jail he went for multiple traffic and misdemeanor offenses.

That is hilarious!

Everyone wants to be a gangster until it's time to do gangster shit.

Dealt with them on several occasions. An acquaintance of mine who is a LEO in a neighboring county was fired on by a sovereign citizen during a traffic stop and had to put him down.

Dealing with them is ALWAYS a headache.

quote:

Originally posted by DTREND75: It's the same thing you just have to be Black.

Now that's just plain racist. Picking on us whities 'cos we isn't black. Discrimination is the name for that kinda sh*t.