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The finding is actually three months old already. Here's what I wrote on another board at the time:

Verdict is in: one year two months suspended (minus four month due to undue delay in proceedings), 50,000 Euro to the state of Schleswig-Holstein, 200,000 to various charities. The tank and gun to be transferred to a museum or appropriate collector. The prosecution held until the end that both items violated the weapons of war control law, but the court disagreed and found they had "museal character".

In the end he was only convicted for possession of three items violating the weapons of war control law, one machine gun barrel and two rounds of ammunition. I think there were additional counts of illegally owning "normal" guns, ammunition and explosives, but can find no details yet; the court held for him that he had no ill intentions, his age, previous clean record and confession, but held the sheer number of weapons and ammunition against him.

As part of a plea bargain the defendant waived compensation of damage and possible personal injury, and return of weapons and ammunition. The state takes over the cost of recovering and storing the seized items for the last six years, which in turn are likely covered by the 50,000 Euro fine they get. He has two years to sell the Panther and AA gun; reportedly a Seattle museum (read, probably the former Paul Allen Collection) and a collector from the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia respectively are interested in them.

The prosecution originally also announced to make his possible political convictions an issue; apparently the basement also included illuminated SS runes, a Hitler bust, tables with swastika covers and a three-digit number of mannequins in Nazi-era uniforms. In the end it didn't figure though.

Charged with being too normal for this gay planet, must not be enough arab rape gangs to go after in Germany.

Pathetic what this world has become.

I love Germany, but some of their laws are just draconian!

So what hoops have to be jumped through to be considered an "appropriate collector", and why is it okay for them to have "weapons of war"?

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne:
The finding is actually three months old already. Here's what I wrote on another board at the time:

Verdict is in: one year two months suspended (minus four month due to undue delay in proceedings), 50,000 Euro to the state of Schleswig-Holstein, 200,000 to various charities. The tank and gun to be transferred to a museum or appropriate collector. The prosecution held until the end that both items violated the weapons of war control law, but the court disagreed and found they had "museal character".

In the end he was only convicted for possession of three items violating the weapons of war control law, one machine gun barrel and two rounds of ammunition. I think there were additional counts of illegally owning "normal" guns, ammunition and explosives, but can find no details yet; the court held for him that he had no ill intentions, his age, previous clean record and confession, but held the sheer number of weapons and ammunition against him.

As part of a plea bargain the defendant waived compensation of damage and possible personal injury, and return of weapons and ammunition. The state takes over the cost of recovering and storing the seized items for the last six years, which in turn are likely covered by the 50,000 Euro fine they get. He has two years to sell the Panther and AA gun; reportedly a Seattle museum (read, probably the former Paul Allen Collection) and a collector from the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia respectively are interested in them.

The prosecution originally also announced to make his possible political convictions an issue; apparently the basement also included illuminated SS runes, a Hitler bust, tables with swastika covers and a three-digit number of mannequins in Nazi-era uniforms. In the end it didn't figure though.

Apologies, Herr Banshee, I hold my paw up to missing that. I've pulled my post accordingly.

Naw, that's the pitfalls of the internet where sometimes you just can't know the date of origins for some news. As it goes, this one is actually rather recent.

quote:

Originally posted by JoseyWales2:
So what hoops have to be jumped through to be considered an "appropriate collector", and why is it okay for them to have "weapons of war"?

"Weapons of war" can't in fact be owned by private individuals; however, items can lose that status through proper demilitarization. For armored vehicles, that basically entails rendering the weapons non-functional and removing some armor below the skin. The quarrel in this case was about how proper the procedure had been applied to the tank and AA gun; for other items of the collection, like a torpedo and a mortar, it was never in question. There is in fact a good argument that the prosecution overreached because they had made those two their white whales.

Mind that the original search of the defendant's property wasn't about any weapons, but looted Nazi art which had floated around the black market since 1945, and they stumbled over his personal bat cave by chance. It wasn't actually a secret he owned that stuff; back in the day he sometimes took the Panther for a ride, used it to tow cars which had become stuck in snow, etc. At one point it had been overhauled at the Panzermuseum in Munster which is run by the German army, though when they pulled it out of that basement it hadn't moved in a long time.

AIUI the disagreements were about changing requirements and certification of demilitarization. You can't treat any AFV the same; there used to be a military vehicle collector based at the old Wehrmacht proving grounds at Kummersdorf south of Berlin who had an artillery observer track converted from a 60s Jagdpanzer Kanone tank destroyer and a Luchs scout vehicle. I organized a visit for an armor-oriented internet forum and invited guests for my 40th birthday there for some rides a decade ago, and the owner related that when they tried to cut up the armor of the Bundeswehr's surplus Luchse under arms control regulations, they found that the filler between the plates reacted violently to a blowtorch flame; so it stayed intact. Unfortunately he died just before our second visit, and his collection is probably spread far and wide now.

As noted, the court eventually came down for the owner regarding the Panther and the 88, and the only counts remaining under the weapons of war control law were an MG barrel and two rounds of ammunition (probably explosive shells) which likely weren't demilled properly. The bulk of charges however seem to have been violations of "civilian" gun and explosives law. Ironically, regulation-wise it's much easier to park a neutered tank in your garage than collect live guns (other than muzzleloaders developed before 1871)*, though probably more expensive. Selling off those two items was however part of the plea deal, maybe because it was something all sides could agree on after the protracted proceedings.


* Out of ca. 1.75 million gun permits in Germany, only about 10,000 are "red cards" for collectors.

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne:
Naw, that's the pitfalls of the internet where sometimes you just can't know the date of origins for some news. As it goes, this one is actually rather recent.

* Out of ca. 1.75 million gun permits in Germany, only about 10,000 are "red cards" for collectors.

Many thanks for the explication.

The fully-refurbished Panther, restored in England and now in the Cairns War Museum in Australia, changed hands for an alleged £14 MILLION - almost $20 Million.

Here in UK anybody can own any WW2 vehicle or, for that matter, even the main battle tank before one - the Chieftain. Vehicles like Abbot, an SPG, and Scimitar light tanks can drive on public roads, as they have modern resilient rubber-padded tracks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9f6fX4bXW8