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Striker in waiting |
For what it's worth, the automatic transfer switch at the farm is so fast, the lights, TV, and computer don't even notice. How sensitive is your equipment? -Rob I predict that there will be many suggestions and statements about the law made here, and some of them will be spectacularly wrong. - jhe888 A=A | |||
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I don't think my equipment is any more sensitive than most. That which isn't on UPS units goes off when I lose power and it comes back on - in good shape - when commercial power restores. My point in asking the question I did is that there is some relatively simple and inexpensive equipment that could be an installed feature on these home generators. Having experienced the benefits, I know I'd certainly pay a premium for it. Re speed of the transfer switch, I have to believe that the time it takes that generator to start, stabilize, and assume the load because of a commercial power outage is going to result in a power loss in the house, regardless of how quickly it can do it. The only generators I've seen that could pull off a cold start and assume the load after a commercial power loss without a power interruption in the protected building were ones [electrically] behind an MG set and those would be financially out of reach for any homeowners I know. Thanks for the feedback, guys. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "And it's time that particularly, some of our corporations learned, that when you get in bed with government, you're going to get more than a good night's sleep." - Ronald Reagan | |||
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| Retired, laying back and enjoying life  |
Check your ground on the generator. I installed a 20KW Generac myself with the help of an electrician friend six years ago and went the first year with out problems. I live in an area prone to thunderstorms and tornados. So lightening started eating boards like candy. The fifth was being replace on warranty as the fourth board did not last a week. Maintenance guy was the first to seem to know what he was doing. He reworked the grounding (definitely did not look like what the manual called for) and it has worked now for four years without a problem. Maintenance manual on the Generac calls for oil, filters, sparkplugs be done every two years with normal operation or sooner if operation is continuous. Battery needs checking and replacing as necessary. These I do myself. You can get a service kit from your Generac dealer for about $25, order from Generac or dozens of suppliers. Valves and generator I had checked after I first installed and again a couple years in. We average a power outage here at least once a month but more often once/twice a week so mine gets all the exercise it needs. These outages usually last only a few minutes to a few hours, several 12 or more hours but one lasted two days and another five days after a tornado ravaged the area. Average kick-in is engine starts 15 seconds after it senses a power outage and generator kicks in about 5-10 seconds later. Shutoff is seamless and only way we know if on power or generator is if the generator is running. The 20 is definitely quieter than the 17. Our house is all electric and the transfer switch is hooked into the main line and goes to main circuit box so I have to monitor what I want powered. In summer it runs everything except we elect not to use kitchen stove (electric). In winter if temperature is too low for heat pump to operate efficiently we turn off electric heat strips. Everything else it handles including electric hot water heater. While probably not cost efficient it sure is nice to sit in an air conditioned house watching TV while all around are people with kerosene lamps sweltering in the summer heat. Freedom comes from the will of man. In America it is guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment | |||
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Do your self a favor and find your local Cummins distributor (they are everywhere) and buy an Onan brand generator. Onan is the real deal. I've been selling generators for 20 years and I truly believe Onan is by far the best. In the industry the joke is "if you can buy it at Home Depot you don't want it". I'm not sure if Costco still does it but they used to hook their customers up with Cummins (they own onan) to get a good deal. | |||
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Ammoholic |
First off nothing can stop lightening. I always joke with my customers that if you can find a DeLorean and get it to 88 mph you can travel back in time with some lightening. It's powerful stuff. Ever seen a tree hit by it? Google side flashes. There is no surge protector that can save you from it. Best you can do is ground it correctly. The right way to bond/ground things is have one fault path to ground. Problem is the generators often times come with a ground lug to connect a ground rod to, in almost all installations this lug should not be used. Some jurisdictions require it which I disagree with. All grounds for the home should go to house ground. Generator, Telecom, and Electrical. That ground should be cold water ground, ground rods, or Ufer ground. Depending on setup backed up with secondary ground rod. My only guess is that you did not have an effective ground path back to the electrical service and only you had was a ground rod for generator ground. If this is the case you could easily constantly blow boards. Jesse Sic Semper Tyrannis | |||
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Member |
Need to make sure there is a ground rod at the generator and generator is connected to the ground rod also need to make sure the neutral and ground are bonded at the generator unless you are feeding a transformer. also need to see if house loads are balanced between legs. _____________________ "We're going to die. Some people are scared of dying. Never be afraid to die. Because you're born to die," Walter Breuning 114 years old | |||
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Thanks for all the replies, especially those in the business. Will hopefully be able to update with more details after visiting the house again on Saturday. The Enemy's gate is down. | |||
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My dog crosses the line |
We also have a Kohler 15K generator and switch. We have a 500# buried propane tank. No issues, would buy it again. It fires up and runs for 30 minutes once a week. We installed it 7 years ago. We do a yearly oil/filter and plug change. We've had two occations when we were without power for 4 or 5 days. We changed the oil after these events..,probably didn't need to. | |||
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Nullus Anxietas |
I no longer recommend Generac, either. They used to be the only generator I'd recommend. They're not what they once were, IMO. I have a 4000EXL I bought back in 1994 or so. I'm so wishing I'd spent the extra for the 7000EXL at the time, because they simply do not make anything like those generators any more, and I need More Power. "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe "If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher | |||
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That is interesting, especially the part about the shutoff transparency. That may be the transfer switch speed a poster above was talking about. With that in mind, can you start the generator manually while commercial power is still available and have it assume the load just as transparently? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "And it's time that particularly, some of our corporations learned, that when you get in bed with government, you're going to get more than a good night's sleep." - Ronald Reagan | |||
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I had a 12kw Honeywell (Generac) installed at my rural second home. Even though it came with an auto start/transfer box, I nevertheless installed a manual start/transfer for it. Since I am away from the place for 1-3 weeks, I did not want the generator running during that time and using up fuel from my 500 gal. tank. It's no problem to do this manually when I am there. | |||
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Kohler and Onan(cummins) would be my top picks for household generators. They are large players in the marine and commercial worlds too whereas generac is not. | |||
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Member |
Guess I got the only good Generac generator. We've had our 20kw with ATS installed for almost ten years now, and its continued to work flawlessly. Just oil, filter, and battery maintenance to do annually. And I do the valve check/adjustments every few years depending on how much use the unit has seen. I don't like people working on my cars, same goes for my generator. ----------------------------- Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter | |||
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| Ammoholic |
NO, NO, NO!!!! Wrong! Please don't give potentially dangerous advice this is incorrect. It creates two ground paths and makes your generator part of your grounding electrode system. DON'T DO THIS!!! Jesse Sic Semper Tyrannis | |||
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| Retired, laying back and enjoying life |
Good question. Generator engine has a manual start on it although the generator only runs when the unit senses power drop. The unknown is whether the sensor works in manual mode or is taken off line when in manual mode. Only way to answer question would be to start it up and go to the Transfer box and throw the switch to the outside power and see what happens. The circuit board controls all the functions and would be the risk in trying the experiment and as mentioned earlier are expensive. Don't think I'll try it to find out. As to lightening I know from experience nothing stops a direct or near miss from frying equipment. What was explained to me was that the grounding lug on the Generac when hooked to a rod driven into the ground acts as a conduit for the static charge that builds up in the ground during storms. This charge then passes back up into the generator. Generac circuit boards control everything and are sensitive so least bit can blow them out. What was corrected on mine was to disconnect the generator ground rod and route the grounding to the house circuit and its grounding. Freedom comes from the will of man. In America it is guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment | |||
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I have been pleased with our Generac 22kw. We have not had to use it very often but it has kicked on without issue the few times it was needed. Runs a test every Saturday morning. I am pleased with our dealer/installer. Seemed to be a good guy. Annual maintenance is only $100 or so. Not sure why the others are so high. | |||
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Almost 15 years as a power gen tech. Unless generator is connected with delta configuration, has a grounded phase or is powering a transformer or is forbidden by area electric code a bonded ground and neutral can prevent issues. Transient voltage spikes and a more than 25 ohm fault current path can cause issues with control boards. also an unbalanced load will also cause premature failure of control boards and regulators. Current completed project 2,500 KW at 480vac with tier 4 60L diesel engine that burns approx. 175 gallons of fuel an hour at full load. And has neutral and ground bonded by the factory at time of shipment.  _____________________ "We're going to die. Some people are scared of dying. Never be afraid to die. Because you're born to die," Walter Breuning 114 years old | |||
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Not really an practical way to parallel a home unit with utility the limitations in fuel control and generator end size and material. A closed transition transfer switch would allow you to start the generator while utility is present go to generator without a power loss and back to utility also without a power loss. If utility power is lost and generator is auto started by transfer switch you will still have 5 to 12 seconds without power till generator comes up to rated speed and voltage. it will wait for generator and utility to be in synch but will only be connected to both for the time needed to complete transfer or retransfer. A lot of water plants, airports and Radio/TV tower sites will go to generator before a storm approaches and run on generator until bad weather passes. This disconnects them from utility power so if the power lines take a lightening strike it will stop at the open side of the transfer switch and will not damage equipment inside. Sometimes this works but if lightening wants to damage something it will and there is nothing that will stop it. _____________________ "We're going to die. Some people are scared of dying. Never be afraid to die. Because you're born to die," Walter Breuning 114 years old | |||
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| Ammoholic |
I can't speak to 2.5MW installs on whatever that is attached to. That is very likely considered a separatly derived system, so you do likely bond it as its considered like a service. On home optional standby systems you do not bond at generator, only at ATS (unless ATS is a sub). For a house you are dealing with a Non-separately Derived System (read the link, has a good explanation). Grounding at generator creates multiple ground paths which is not allowed. In addition to the multiple ground paths bonding at generator also creates a situation where the ground is carrying half the neutral load (assuming wiring is same resistance), this is a big no no. See picture of inside of residential optional standby system (Generac). Don't mind the writing that was from a training PPT I put together. Notice lack of bonding jumper?  This message has been edited. Last edited by: Skins2881, Jesse Sic Semper Tyrannis | |||
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| Retired, laying back and enjoying life |
Just my #0.02 worth but for a 20KW Generac what Kg5388 says about using grounding rod at generator did not work for me and cost me almost as much in circuit board replacement as I paid for the whole system. What Skins2881 says about grounding the system to the house is working for me in a highly intense environment. Other systems may hook up differently but a 20KW Generac does not. Freedom comes from the will of man. In America it is guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment | |||
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