I'ved owned the 2000 Honda Insight, 2005 Toyota Prius (hybrid), and 2014 Toyota Prius Plugin (plugin hybrid).

The 2000 Honda Insight, and later Civic Hybrids, were NOT good. Honda's pure parallel hybrid design meant once the battery depleted, there was a substantial reduction in power. I don't know if this is still true of Honda Hybrids today.

Toyota has a far better hybrid system. Based on a planetary gear system, it can smoothly transition from mostly parallel to mostly serial hybrid, to get the best mix of ICE and electric propulsion for the given conditions. The Toyota hybrid system works in a way that there are no sudden reductions in power as the battery is depleted (unlike early Honda).

With a non-plugin Toyota Hybrid, you don't worry about the battery state. The effect of high vs. low battery state is very subtle, to practically unnoticeable.

With the 2014 Plugin Prius, I started out with 16 miles of pure electric range, but that dropped to 10 miles over the course of 3-5 years. It's stayed steady at 10 miles ever since (last 5-7 years). With the 2014 model, I have to be light on the gas pedal and keep the speed under about 60 mph to keep it in all electric mode. If I pay attention to this, I can easily do a 10 mile trip in the city all-electric.

Newer models of Plugin Prius (Prius Prime) have more powerful electric motors, and longer electric-only range (44 miles), so you should be able to drive these more aggressively and still stay in all electric mode. I have not driven any of these first hand.

The TCO of my Toyota Priuses ('05 hybrid and '14 plugin hybrid) have been very low. It's pretty much like any quality ICE car, except brakes last much longer because regenerative braking does much of the work. There's been no additional costs associated with the hybrid drivetrain. With the normal routine ICE vehicle servicing, you should easily get 10 years / 150k miles and more.

I did notice my parents' '05 Prius hybrid battery did get noticeably weaker (experienced as less power) after 150k miles. However, they lived in a very hot climate, and the battery chemistry in that model is NiMH. My own '05 Prius hybrid, in a more moderate climate, had no noticeable degradation in power over time. Current model Prius all have Lithium ion batteries.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by grumpy1:
I am curious as to what about the driver that drives very little like a lot of retirees. Would such be bad for a hybrid system battery and what about days being idle in extreme sub zero cold? Could there be an issue with the hybrid car not starting if voltage on hybrid battery is too low or would it be fine if the gas engine starts?[QUOTE]


I almost bought a low mile Avalon Hybrid this past summer, but this was my concern as well, the car fax report showed car sitting without many miles between registrations and had several services that sounded to me like the hybrid battery got low and needed some help. Just my reasoning, no "real" info.

I decided that didn't fit the nitch in my fleet where it could sit in the garage for months.

At work, we test the hybrid Prius we own to compare formulations.

You would be gobsmacked to see the way the Toyota engineers have calibrated the internal combustion engine (ICE) and the electric motor. You might think it would be set up to run ICE, then switch to motor, depending on specific vehicle speeds and loads. Actually the system operates more like two inexperienced people riding a tandem bicycle. Both ICE and motor, only ICE, only motor, in a chaotic mix. It would be like my wife and I on our first ride. Yes, you pedal with me! Slow down, I can't pedal as fast as you. I give up, you pedal. OK, I can do it for a little while, you rest. Obviously a fully optimized mix of the two power sources.

And, with this nearly continuous battery use and recharge, the hybrid battery somehow manages to stay alive.

My son in law has a Prius with almost 200k on it and he has done nothing to it. It’s still going strong. I am looking to buy a Toyota hybrid in a few years when I retire, probably a Corolla, possibly a Prius. It will supplement my 2 4Runners (which buy three will have 80-100k on them).

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:
If the numbers I'm using aren't accurate, what are the accurate numbers for that year/model of vehicle and what is the source?

I went and looked at the mpg for the 2024 Toyota Camry and using the information from the same source, as well as Toyota's published mpg - 28mpg (combined) for non-hybrid and 52mpg (combined) for hybrid - over the same 140,000 miles and 14 year period I calculated a cost savings of $5,775. Using the current battery replacement cost of $5,800, an owner would have a total cost savings of just $5.

As far as keeping a vehicle long-term, both my vehicles are over twenty years old and, for a number of reasons, it's my intention to keep and maintain them for as long a parts are available.

What resource would you use to determine the average length of ownership of a hybrid? When a hybrid owner moves on to a newer model are the old ones junked or do other people buy them? If people are buying used hybrids is it safe to assume that at some point the battery pack will need replacing?

No one replaces a battery then stops using the car. If you replace the battery at 140k and keep driving it, the savings build again. If you don't replace the battery, the savings are there. It's only if you replace the battery and then never drive it again that the savings are minimized.

quote:

Originally posted by bobtheelf:
No one replaces a battery then stops using the car. If you replace the battery at 140k and keep driving it, the savings build again. If you don't replace the battery, the savings are there. It's only if you replace the battery and then never drive it again that the savings are minimized.

I have no idea how you got that understanding from my posts. My point was the savings (or not) up to the moment of replacing the battery.

No shit that the vehicle will be used and the savings clock starts again after replacement. To think otherwise is idiotic.