quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

quote:

Originally posted by Salty Dawg:
I have always assumed that the whole Noah's Ark story was just an allegory.

It is. There is not enough water on the planet to accomplish a world covering flood. It is very possible that an epic localized flood created the biblical flood story, but the fact remains that it is just a story.

Actually, there is enough water: https://www.newscientist.com/a...towards-earths-core/

Flood stories exist in the mythologies of many ancient cultures, and these tales pre-date the flood story of the Old Testament.

The Flood is an archetypal story form.

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Originally posted by parabellum:
Flood stories exist in the mythologies of many ancient cultures, and these tales pre-date the flood story of the Old Testament.

The Flood is an archetypal story form.

Yet I've met many fundamentalists who are certain that the story of Noah is a factual account of an actual event. These same people are also of the belief that there was really an Adam and an Eve, really a Jonah who was swallowed and regurgitated by a fish, and so on. I don't try to convince them otherwise, nor do I care if they believe as they do, but I am very curious to know if it's a majority belief.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

quote:

Originally posted by Salty Dawg:
I have always assumed that the whole Noah's Ark story was just an allegory.

It is. There is not enough water on the planet to accomplish a world covering flood. It is very possible that an epic localized flood created the biblical flood story, but the fact remains that it is just a story.

Actually, there is enough water: https://www.newscientist.com/a...towards-earths-core/

Perhaps there is a vast amount of water trapped in the mantle. But the key word is “trapped”. If it were able to somehow reach the surface, it would still be there and we likely never would have. The “great flood” never happened on a global scale and never will.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Flood stories exist in the mythologies of many ancient cultures, and these tales pre-date the flood story of the Old Testament.

The Flood is an archetypal story form.

You sure it's not the other way around?

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Originally posted by gearhounds:

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Originally posted by PowerSurge:

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

quote:

Originally posted by Salty Dawg:
I have always assumed that the whole Noah's Ark story was just an allegory.

It is. There is not enough water on the planet to accomplish a world covering flood. It is very possible that an epic localized flood created the biblical flood story, but the fact remains that it is just a story.

Actually, there is enough water: https://www.newscientist.com/a...towards-earths-core/

Perhaps there is a vast amount of water trapped in the mantle. But the key word is “trapped”. If it were able to somehow reach the surface, it would still be there and we likely never would have. The “great flood” never happened on a global scale and never will.

I always try to adhere to the scientific method. In doing so, I keep an open mind and try not to speak with certainty. Otherwise, it is a ‘belief’.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Flood stories exist in the mythologies of many ancient cultures, and these tales pre-date the flood story of the Old Testament.

The Flood is an archetypal story form.

You sure it's not the other way around?

Yes, I'm sure.

Gilgamesh flood myth

This predates the Book of Genesis by several hundred years.

Similarities are easily found. For example, in the 'Calm after the storm' section of the Wiki article:

The boat lodged firmly on mount Nimush which held the boat for several days, allowing no swaying.
On the seventh day he released a dove which flew away, but came back to him. He released a swallow, but it also came back to him.

Sound familiar?

List of Flood Myths

I had a friend, who, when asked "What color is that house over there?" would respond with "It appears to be white on this side." I recommend that mindset.

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

quote:

Originally posted by Salty Dawg:
I have always assumed that the whole Noah's Ark story was just an allegory.

It is. There is not enough water on the planet to accomplish a world covering flood. It is very possible that an epic localized flood created the biblical flood story, but the fact remains that it is just a story.

You don't know for sure any more than anyone else does. That is why the conversation exists.

Gave this some thought a while back.

In the beginning there was water 'above the firmament' and 'below the firmament'. During the start of the great flood, it was said that the Fountains of the Great Deep had opened. If the water above the firmament had been suspended in a balanced atmospheric state, it would not have been able to precipitate without differences in pressures/density shifts. Once the fountains opened up and spewed particulates in the sky (much like seeding clouds) the water molecules could cling to these particulates and become the rain. It could be said that the continental shifts had began with the opening of these fountains. The deluge retreating after the 40 days with the possible forming of the continental basins. When the dove came back with the olive branch, it meant that the water had receded to expose fertile soil well enough for it to grow.

The real head scratcher to me was in the book of Ezekiel. Trying to grasp the architecture of the cart with the four cherubs. Ended up with two different ways it is possible (one for each way the text was translated). Guess I'll take them to the patent office as a hobby after I retire.

As far as the Evolution / Creation debate, I'll choose Thermodynamics.

Between the "Arc" and the Creation Museum the owner could sell ice cubes to Eskimos.

The bible is full of simple stories for simple people of a single time. Can you imagine if it wasn't? Genesis alone would be 25k pages.

"First I started with a single atom."

A what?

"Uh.. a single man, named Adam."

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

quote:

Originally posted by Salty Dawg:
I have always assumed that the whole Noah's Ark story was just an allegory.

It is. There is not enough water on the planet to accomplish a world covering flood. It is very possible that an epic localized flood created the biblical flood story, but the fact remains that it is just a story.

It's an allegory? For what, then? If the story that God had enough of man's wickedness and killed all of them but eight with a flood doesn't mean that God had enough of man's wickedness and killed all of them but eight, then what does it mean?

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

Perhaps there is a vast amount of water trapped in the mantle. But the key word is “trapped”. If it were able to somehow reach the surface, it would still be there and we likely never would have. The “great flood” never happened on a global scale and never will.

Not perhaps. There is. There is something like 3-4 times as much water underground as in all the oceans combined. In fact, one doesn't have to look very far on the internet at "credible" websites to see that there IS enough water to cover the entire earth to the tops of the highest mountains. The account in Genesis doesn't say that it was just rain that caused the flood. "...on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened." Strange that the writer of the account knew that the flood came not just from rain, but from underground sources millenia before anyone knew that water existed in underground sources. If someone were making up the story, why include an essential element no one would have known about?

At a time when Hindus, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans were postulating that the earth was on the shoulders of some God, or on the backs of giant elephants who were standing on the back of an even gianter turtle, the book of Job, probably written in the 7th century BC said of God, "He stretches out the north over the void and hangs the earth on nothing."

God told the Hebrews to circumcise their children on the 8th day. No one knew then that the 8th day after a child is born that coagulation is fully developed.

Academics discounted the story of Jericho even before it was even rediscovered. When it was rediscovered, it was determined that the grain silos were full of grain indicating it was abandoned when the Bible said it was, that there were no burn marks on the outside of the walls, indicating that it burned from within as the Bible says it did, and that the wall debris was in laid out in such a fashion to suggest the walls did collapse suddenly and all at once.

Archaeologists used to say King David never existed. Until an ancient stone was discovered referencing the house of David.

Historians said there was never any proof Pontius Pilate existed, until a memorial stone was found referencing Pontius Pilate the prefect that is dated to the time of Christ.

It's all very interesting. What I am interested in is when the Bible and Science became mutually exclusive.

One of the greatest mathematicians in history, Isaac Newton, famed as the writer of Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy, wrote more about his Christian faith than he did about mathematics and physics.

Galileo, who discovered the earth was not the center of the universe (and found himself persecuted by the pope for it), likewise, wrote more about his Christian faith than he did about science.

History is full of science-greats that founds science a means of discovering the way God does things.

Some of today's scientist insist man, indeed all life, evolved from the same primordial slop as the chimpanzee did and will tell us how many years it has been since man and chimps shared a common ancestor. They have no idea how long its been since man and an oak tree shared a common ancestor.

What man knows about actual history and science is as a fly-speck against the universe. What man knows about the universe is infinitesimally small compared to what he does not know. What he knows is next to nothing. Yet we can say with utmost certainty that something didn't happen thousands, or hundreds of thousands, of years ago?

Like I said, interesting.

I’m not saying it’s not possible a large flood of some kind didn’t happen. I’m saying a large global flood didn’t happen. If it had, clearly just about all terrestrial life would have perished. All of mankind would have perished.

As to subterranean water, there has been known to be vast amounts of water locked up in the mantle but it is simply too hot for an actual ocean to exist as a body of water. It is most likely all contained in minerals. It’s there, but having it gush forth is highly unlikely.

And again, the worldwide flood never happened. If it had, it would still be here.

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
All of mankind would have perished.

Well, various bibles claim that’s what happened, almost.

But the tale is full of so many impossibilities that trying to shoehorn parts of it into the facts we know about the world is an exercise in ludicrous futility. Take, for example, the claim that it rained so hard that the “highest mountains” were covered within 40 days. With a little calculation we know that would have required a steady, 960 hour deluge of water at 30 feet per hour. These are some observations about that point I made some time ago:

Rainfall at the rate of one inch an hour is considered severe weather by the National Weather Service. Rain at the rate of five inches an hour is a suffocating downpour. Water accumulating at the rate necessary to cover the earth’s mountains in the time allotted by Genesis would have been a waterfall, not rain. Nothing that breathes air could have survived in such a deluge for longer than it could hold its breath, because there would have been no available air to breathe. This is as true for the marine mammals as it would have been for any land animal. So, Noah had to find room for the cetaceans along with all the rest; where do you suppose he put the two blue whales? (Or was it 14 of the creatures; are whales “clean”?) How did he establish and maintain the proper environment for them and the others that live in seawater? How did he even get them on board? No, he couldn’t have waited for the rain to start and then load them directly out of the water. Once the water started falling at the rate of 30 feet per hour, the ark would have had to have been sealed as tightly as a submarine, since it was virtually submerged for the next 40 days. If the ark was completely watertight, it was obviously airtight as well. How did all those animals survive for nearly six weeks on the air that was in the boat when it was sealed up?

And then there’s all the terrestrial plant life that’s not even mentioned. It wasn’t taken on the ark, so how did it survive in total darkness under thousands of feet of water for weeks?

When an entire planet is covered in water, where does it "recede" to?

Were there centuries of famine due to the salinity of the soil after sea water inundation?

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
All of mankind would have perished.

Well, various bibles claim that’s what happened, almost.

But the tale is full of so many impossibilities that trying to shoehorn parts of it into the facts we know about the world is an exercise in ludicrous futility. Take, for example, the claim that it rained so hard that the “highest mountains” were covered within 40 days. With a little calculation we know that would have required a steady, 960 hour deluge of water at 30 feet per hour. These are some observations about that point I made some time ago:

Rainfall at the rate of one inch an hour is considered severe weather by the National Weather Service. Rain at the rate of five inches an hour is a suffocating downpour. Water accumulating at the rate necessary to cover the earth’s mountains in the time allotted by Genesis would have been a waterfall, not rain. Nothing that breathes air could have survived in such a deluge for longer than it could hold its breath, because there would have been no available air to breathe. This is as true for the marine mammals as it would have been for any land animal. So, Noah had to find room for the cetaceans along with all the rest; where do you suppose he put the two blue whales? (Or was it 14 of the creatures; are whales “clean”?) How did he establish and maintain the proper environment for them and the others that live in seawater? How did he even get them on board? No, he couldn’t have waited for the rain to start and then load them directly out of the water. Once the water started falling at the rate of 30 feet per hour, the ark would have had to have been sealed as tightly as a submarine, since it was virtually submerged for the next 40 days. If the ark was completely watertight, it was obviously airtight as well. How did all those animals survive for nearly six weeks on the air that was in the boat when it was sealed up?

And then there’s all the terrestrial plant life that’s not even mentioned. It wasn’t taken on the ark, so how did it survive in total darkness under thousands of feet of water for weeks?

You’re leaving out the fountains of the deep releasing water. Obviously if it only rained forty days and nights that wouldn’t be enough water.

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Originally posted by PowerSurge:
You’re leaving out the fountains of the deep releasing water. Obviously if it only rained forty days and nights that wouldn’t be enough water.

Realeasing huge quantities of BOILING water into the oceans killing every dang thing that swims.

quote:

You’re leaving out the fountains of the deep releasing water. Obviously if it only rained forty days and nights that wouldn’t be enough water.

But we’re back to the water receding. The earth wouldn’t soak it back up like a sponge, leaving the oceans basically where they were pre-flood.