The wife and I were organzing some stuff in our basement. While throwing out and rearranging some things we came across some of my old work memorabilia. We found three certificates I earned for a tech consulting company in 2000, 2001, 2002 for billing about 2400 hrs / year. At the time 2080 hrs was considered "full time". That era was very bad for tech workers (the infamous dot com bubble bursting). I got these billable hours by cutting my bill rate by about 35%. I chose to work for less but still work and it paid off. I got experience much sooner that I would have in a normal tech environment. Many that chose not to take a cut were forced to make "career changes" for a period of time and when they tried to come back they were way behind the 8-ball.

Enough history, fast forward to now. I believe that there are some very dark clouds on the horizon for tech companies. Many tech employers have fluffed their work environments by allowing working from home (not all bad but there are some big downsides), "in house free gourmet cafeterias", gyms, etc., etc., etc. in order to attract architects, development, and QA engineers. This in turn encouraged many "boot camps" to get people up to a jr. level of competency. In addition to getting minimally competent people, those same people have unearned promotions from Jr->Mid-Sr levels. Now that layoffs are happening with more on the horizon, many of those artificially hired and promoted are refusing to increase their work load at the same pay. What they don't realize is that there are getting to be more and more people willing to do that in order to stay employed. Also going unnoticed by them is the higher level of experience they'll get by staying employed. I might add this is not limited to youngsters. Many older folks that "learned to code" have the same entitled attitude.

I believe there are going to be some very bad repurcussions in tech for folks that don't beleive trying times on the horizon. Getting a reminder of very bad times in my career made me wonder if other members seeing the "entitled employee" problem in their industries?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bytes,

Work from home is now an entitlement I'm reading about a lot. Since the scamdemic when people were sent to WFH, employees now expect it. They talk about how they're more productive at work and how much money they're saving. I suspect many have moved out of state (to a lower cost of living area while still keeping big city salaries) and are not only extremely opposed to it but also opposed to a hybrid where they'd come in two days a week.

The market will determine what employers and employees do.

But I will tell you that some people here on the forum will say take whatever work you can, no matter how low pay or below your skill set or else you are ungrateful.

The WFH crowd along the the DEI crowd are holding companies hostage. They claim increased productivity but there is a lot of data that is contradicting those claims. There are many signs that we could be heading for a recession that will have the possibility to tip the scales the other way. The amount of jobs that are available to college grads is the worst I have seen since 2008 forcing many kids back towards advanced degrees. Recessions are normal and necessary in the economic cycle as they are a self correcting mechanism. The newly minted employees entering the workforce are soft and entitled for sure. Decades of everyone getting a trophy and not declaring winners and losers have made them all feel safe and special. Sometimes the world offers you choices where you assess the risk and you take the chance for compensation later. Many people can not see past the risk to the potential opportunity. That is a key trait of a successful self-employed individual.

quote:

Originally posted by dking271:
The amount of jobs that are available to college grads is the worst I have seen since 2008 forcing many kids back towards advanced degrees.

That sure as hell isn't the answer. Sounds like they're just accumulating more debt while not getting any type of work experience.

I went to grad school with a girl who is likely still >$200k in school loan debt. That's a mortgage, not a school loan!

^^^^^^^^^^
Perhaps they have learned their lesson and are studying in a specific professional field. There are still many professions that require a postgraduate education. On the other hand perhaps some are independently wealthy.

Work from home (just like work in an office setting) is only as efficient and engaged as management facilitates. If you've got absentee "hands off" management who have zero clue about the indicators they need to watch to get real estimates of performance, remote working teams will not be successful. Blaming faltering performance solely on the work environment is a cop out for lazy and unskilled/impoverished managers. WFH can be successful if there are sound systems and processes for measuring both quality and output on a consistent basis.

Nannyware built into applications like teams is only a stopgap, because management cannot easily discern the quality performance versus quantity in most cases. But there is a real tendency to falsely equivocate micromanagement with actual managerial success.

I saw a post on Reddit not long ago about the push at large corporates to force employees back into office settings. JP Morgan Chase have invested tons into AI driven camera and microphone surveillance systems in the office. Apparently some of these systems can monitor body language and facial expressions to train a behavioral/production baseline for each employee. The AI monitors and saves everything employees do on a daily basis and alerts management when there is a deviation.

If that is the future of in-office work environments, fuck that. I'll go into an office no problem, but I won't sit in an AI driven dystopian circle jerk that makes the level of control in 1984 look reasonable.

quote:

That sure as hell isn't the answer. Sounds like they're just accumulating more debt while not getting any type of work experience.

I went to grad school with a girl who is likely still >$200k in school loan debt. That's a mortgage, not a school loan!

I guess that depends on what they are pursuing. My daughter’s boyfriend was accepted into law school with a full ride. My daughter’s chosen career path is required to have an advanced degree and clinical rotations. She was one of eight kids accepted into a program that had over 130 applicants. Both kids recently graduated Magna Cum Laude from hard degree programs. There is a merit advantage to those who work hard in times like these. There is also a difference between being intelligent and being educated which is often lost on those who believe an advanced degree automatically makes them more employable. As a society we have become intellectually lazy.

COVID changed the work world, it allowed a lot of stupid crazy ideas to be implemented from gender identity issues, voting to corporate management of employees work areas

Now the whole sector of people who never wanted to come into an office refuse to come into offices, add a shortage of qualified labor and poof, you have a head butting crisis.

And as predicted early on, a soon to be massive real estate revaluation as companies either embrace the work at home, or succumb to it, either way, you no longer need massive work office buildings to house people from 9-5.

Of course it kills off all the ancillary service businesses as well.

AI, optical scanners, digital cameras, workplace monitoring, seat pressure sensors, keyboard stroke counters, trackers for out of chair time, you will assimilate.....

My guess is the personal CEI score is coming fast and you'll need to comply or not be able to work for the companies wanting high CEI/ESL scores to obtain funding and stock manipulation.

Not a tech company, but work in IT [app mgmt for our main applications] for a smaller mid-size O&G company.
We just hired a developer & had to weed through quite a lot that had WFH 'requirements' that didn't fit the office atmosphere we have.

I WFH 1 day/week, and while it's nice to not have to commute through Houston, I'm definitely more productive at the office (at least until I get around to getting my home office set back up).

My boss hates WFH, personally, and is here 5 days/week.

Our new developer does WFH Friday & our infrastructure guy does 2 days/week [mostly due to his brutal commute (W Katy to IAH for those familiar with Houston)].

Luckily, we don't have a micromanaging environment & pretty much all get along well. Get your work done & some idle time isn't frowned on.

The last twenty years or so the government has minimized the effects of all the economic downturns. Few people realize what true hard times are so they have the luxury of thinking they have it all figured out.
Some of that is why so many can spend so much time worrying about things like all this transgender crap and think it's the most important thing in world history.
Born on third base and think they hit a triple.
The present world is a good example of why we shouldn't pay people a guaranteed "living wage" to stay home to do nothing and shows how destructive the massive welfare programs are to society.

Been seeing it for years. Once the job market got so hot that idiots were able to get a job in spite of their low/No value, it got bad. The “Not my job” crowd has nearly pushed me over the edge a few times. When (not if) the economy tanks and the sloths can’t find a job, they’re going to be in a world of hurt.

quote:

Originally posted by Bytes:

Many tech employers have fluffed their work environments by allowing working from home (not all bad but there are some big downsides), "in house free gourmet cafeterias", gyms, etc., etc., etc. in order to attract architects, development, and QA engineers.

This in turn encouraged many "boot camps" to get people up to a Jr. level of competency.
In addition to getting minimally competent people, those same people have unearned promotions from Jr->Mid-Sr levels.

Now that layoffs are happening with more on the horizon, many of those artificially hired and promoted are refusing to increase their work load at the same pay.

Many older folks that "learned to code" have the same entitled attitude.

{snipped}

I don't disagree with the scenario of events is happening and happens in an industry with ebbs and flows of business.
However, I wouldn't classify this as entitlement so much as poor management by those who deployed the decisions.
Asking to do more and get paid the same is not generally a good business philosophy.
You can blame the workers but I always look at the top down first, they are the ones responsible.
.02

PS I would say that work ethic over the years have eroded but that is a whole 'nother subject.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

Originally posted by Bytes:

Many tech employers have fluffed their work environments by allowing working from home (not all bad but there are some big downsides), "in house free gourmet cafeterias", gyms, etc., etc., etc. in order to attract architects, development, and QA engineers.

This in turn encouraged many "boot camps" to get people up to a Jr. level of competency.
In addition to getting minimally competent people, those same people have unearned promotions from Jr->Mid-Sr levels.

Now that layoffs are happening with more on the horizon, many of those artificially hired and promoted are refusing to increase their work load at the same pay.

Many older folks that "learned to code" have the same entitled attitude.

{snipped}

I don't disagree with the scenario of events is happening and happens in an industry with ebbs and flows of business.
However, I wouldn't classify this as entitlement so much as poor management by those who deployed the decisions.
Asking to do more and get paid the same is not generally a good business philosophy.
You can blame the workers but I always look at the top down first, they are the ones responsible.
.02

PS I would say that work ethic over the years have eroded but that is a whole 'nother subject.

I would partially agree. Tech does ebb and flow, and working from home is not necessarily an entitlement. Where I think many things cross the line to entitlement such as work from home is when I hear a lot of "I'll quit before I do that". Well maybe they will but I am willing to bet that attitude takes a radical change in the next 12 months. It already has in the financial sector. As far as doing more for the same pay it will be a simple and binary choice if things go as I think they will. Either do it or somebody else will. Letting somebody else do it comes with very little upside and a lot of downside. Overall I would agree with both you and Edmond. The market will decide but the future doesn't look like a kinder and gentler market to me (tech wise). Those who make it through a major downturn will be rewarded on an economic upturn. Those who don't will take a major step back making it very hard to catch up.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
Work from home is now an entitlement I'm reading about a lot.

The market will determine what employers and employees do.

In some cases it it more economic for the employer than to bear higher office costs.
Of course there is something to coming in to an actual office that does or can make one more productive.
When at home with no one watching - it is easy to get lazy.
Management just has to hold to their productivity level requirements for the remote employee.

These new assholes actually think my degree and experience is trumped by a youtube video and a quick google search.

I've been retired since 2006, but my job (COBOL computer programmer) was one that could have been done largely from home. I spent most of my office time pounding keys on a computer writing and modifying COBOL programs, frequently ones that I had originally written or had been given total control over. However, I found frequent communication with others in my group who worked with related programs was an essential part of my work plan. Our programs interfaced with each other and changes to one frequently involved the need for changes in others; group discussions on the best ways to do that were very productive. Not only that, my coworkers were also very creative and doing brainstorming about improvements/fixes was often very useful. No doubt Skype and other video sharing options have made a difference, but I still think actual physical presence in discussions is the most efficacious.

FWIW, the COBOL programs I was responsible for were originally written in the early 1980s and they are still running at that company. Some have been recently retired by the use of newer server-based tools, but the basic structure still exists and runs with little assistance. Our integrated program system (job definition, scheduling, running, output distribution, fault detection and resolution, with accompanying security and change management) was considered the epitome of such among our corporate peers. It was written mostly in COBOL, with some subroutines in ALC. Don't believe COBOL is obsolete.

flashguy

Flashguy, I 100% agree. Most of my work can be done at home. The problem I see in many situations is spontaneous collaboration ends when you need to set up a zoom meeting for a 30 second conversation. Zoom and Teams don't really replace a white board either. The newer work force, those with say 5 years or less experience before the Covid lock down don't really see that. Beyond that I am seeing, and many of my golf buddies in different industries are noticing the new or Jr level workforce has not seen an economic downturn. Especially a serious downturn. You obviously know about them. You saw COBOL drop off with the end of Y2K quickly followed by the dot com bubble yet you stayed employed. Do you think the newer Jr level employees would fare as well as you did?

And yeah, COBOL software isn't going anywhere soon

There may be a general one size fits all for working on site vs at home. But at the very least, there are exceptions based on job type, job location and perhaps project phase.

For example, there may be a job where most / all of the team is globally distributed. Out of a team of 30 people, perhaps there are only 3-4 people locally and even then they don't really depend on each other. WFH is seamless since meetings are generally on the phone anyway. Why should it matter if one is on the phone on site or at home?

The question of productivity levels on site vs at home varying is perhaps of a more personal nature. Discipline and integrity makes it seamless; the danger is actually in overworking and leaving work "at work." If the employee has neither discipline nor integrity, then the problem really isn't work location.

Now, there are likely benefits if team members are mostly local - then face to face collaboration in a room is perhaps valuable. Assuming collaboration, hallway ad hoc conversations and such are valuable. If it's just meetings on the phone again, coming into the office shouldn't matter.

For many jobs, you just need to attend the meetings you need to attend and get the work done. It should be left to your discretion when and where you do the work as long as you do it well and on schedule.

Rules don't work -- it's typical to work non-paid overtime at our company (salaried positions). Not just typical, but surprising if you're not working overtime almost daily; but the start time varied somewhat (for example, if you're writing code and you're on a roll, you may work well into the night and start late the next day). For whatever, reason, the company decided that you must be in the office at 8am. With that, everyone starting leaving at 5pm and overtime dropped.

You just need two rules: attend mandatory meetings, get your job done on time. Leave when, where details to the employee.

All this being said - again, may not work largely w/ the newer gens who have no work ethic.

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:
These new assholes actually think my degree and experience is trumped by a youtube video and a quick google search.

Interesting. Are some, most, or all of the newbies as you describe in your industry? Maybe just a few make it seem like all? I followed up on your post because I am seeing more than a little bit of what you describe. We used to take anybody we could get but now we're seeing a LOT more resumes when a position opens. The assholes are now walking on very thin ice.

I have been in various workplace environments. Some are not at all conducive to productivity. Trying to do software development in a cube farm where there were lots of conversations going on around me, was really frustrating. I tried to work from home as much as possible.

Other environments, where ample conference rooms were available and there were rules about keeping the common work area quiet, were much better.