The thought that runs through your mind is "Holy fuck, and I going to prison?" It doesn't matter how right/justified/righteous you are. ALL you can think is if you career, and life, is about to be over.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! That went through my mind every time it happened. It was a hell of a relief though, that one time, to hear my Sheriff from the back of the stack say "Well that worked".

I can see why they did it. I think it was dumb and reckless.

Each time we make a move, the possible outcomes are- new, different or better. So when you make a move you have to do an internal audit in real time- was that something new (how did it work or why didn’t it work), was it something different (how were the results different?) and are you in a better place than you were? It can be a combination of all three. If you make a couple of moves, and afterwards you’re not only not in a better place, but actually a worse place (as in the video), you need to take that pregnant pause and figure it out RFN. These guys went from bad, to worse, and the doubled down on stupid. They chose a course of action (seemingly out of desperation to “do something”) that has that potential to get them in a jackpot.

Man, you don’t have to be a tacti-God. Do the basics. Do them well. The rest can be articulated out after the outcome from doing the basics well. We took cover by pulling up two cars, set a perimeter, and created an L to drive him away from the most public area. We tried to negotiate and de-escalate. Those attempts failed. He was armed, had fired a shot at the police, and was agitated. Our attempts at deescalation were not received well by him, and from there his actions led to the shooting. Boom. Pretty cut and dried. Doesn’t take a lot of resource when it’s going down. And a first year officer can testify that he/she was trained in these tactics at the academy. Each piece you don’t have the resources to do actually works in your favor. (There were only two of us, I pulled a cruiser up to attempt to negotiate, officer Smith got on the 1-2 corner of the strip mall behind cover to push the subject toward away from the most populated area). The basics. They work.

This was a video of not doing the basics well, and introducing more complicated shit into it, which ultimately forced the shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Like DaBigBR, said, they could have brought cars up as well, but cars make for shitty cover, and while I wouldn't want to be hiding behind one hoping it'll stop rounds...

Cars, especially long axis (behind the entire car) are excellent cover. Most agencies' approach to vehicles as cover is dated and not based on data.

LL might mean less lethal but that suspect was carrying a lethal weapon... so say you the beanbag was the proper response....... People want to play stupid games then do not question the out come. To those who have never stood on the line against one of these suspects do not have any idea how they would actually react if put in such a position. ..................... drill sgt.

If for what ever reason I'm standing somewhere with a gun that is visible and confronted by several police officers I would consider myself lucky to have been given several seconds to get rid of it.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:

Cars, especially long axis (behind the entire car) are excellent cover. Most agencies' approach to vehicles as cover is dated and not based on data.

When we went to the 357SIG they took every officer to the range and we shot cars. The only part the SIG wouldn’t go thru was the engine block and the steel rims long ways unless the round hit a support part or short side hitting a window track, the rounds went thru.

I considered cars concealment from that point on.

Most cars are made of AL or plastic nowadays, old cars were steel and were much better at stopping bullets

/drift

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MikeinNC,

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:

Cars, especially long axis (behind the entire car) are excellent cover. Most agencies' approach to vehicles as cover is dated and not based on data.

When we went to the 357SIG they took every officer to the range and we shot cars. The only part the SIG wouldn’t go thru was the engine block and the steel rims long ways unless the round hit a support part or short side hitting a window track, the rounds went thru.

I considered cars concealment from that point on.

Most cars are made of AL or plastic nowadays, old cars were steel and were much better at stopping bullets

/drift

That's been my experience as well, and not just with .357 Sig. We got similar results with 9mm, .40, and even .45. Some rounds got stopped, but some made it all the way through the windshield and out the back of the trunk. Side to side was even worse. It really just depends what they encounter on the way through.

The brake rotors and engine block did not get penetrated, but I'm 6'5" and it's pretty hard to squeeze all of that behind a wheel.

Dumb question: the rounds going through car doors and windows are fmj? Or jhp as well?

Getting behind SOMETHING is better than standing out in the open with NOTHING.

Engine block, tire rim, corner of the building, even the one way far away behind the metal dumpster.


Here's a big problem- the only way to get over that stress induced tunnel vision is to get your ass inoculated to high stress situations multiple times. Complete simple tasks in those high stress situations. Make the tasks more complicated until you get it right, then increase the stress. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Those officers were focused on the bad guy and not the "big picture". If the bad guy wanted to start some shit, he was in a good position to do so.


(When do you want me to ask "where did the brunette go to?")

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Dumb question: the rounds going through car doors and windows are fmj? Or jhp as well?

JHP. Ours were Federal 124 HST...not sure about the specifics on the others.

quote:

Getting behind SOMETHING is better than standing out in the open with NOTHING

Agreed. Anything is better than nothing, and at least you get some concealment. Some rounds will get stopped, others will get deflected...while it's not great cover, it sure beats standing in the open.

The lack of cover was striking as well. I don’t know they chose that route… I imagine they had some sort of reason in mind but I wasn’t there.

Jerry’s point about shooting people that need shooting and quit pussy-footing around is sage advice, and an ugly pill to swallow sometimes, but that’s just the way it goes.

Local agency to me just released a summary video of a shooting from last week and it’s got some similarities… bad guy shot off a gun inside a home with other people in it, they were scared and holed up in other rooms unable to get out. The responders set up a perimeter, called the bad guy on his cell but he didn’t answer. He then came out on the porch and shot again, not knowing the cops were there.

They chose not to make direct interactions and when he started to go back inside a single rifle shot that crossed brain hemispheres ended the threat.

Again, it’s an ugly pill to swallow but it was the right call.

https://youtu.be/5A6pXqcoDhE

I'm familiar with the area. I've driven it a zillion times, year ago when I lived not too far away, or worked nearby.

There's another video of a police officer giving the media a briefing of what happened. It's just an after-event briefing they do after a situation. It's a very old area of the city and is now pretty well run down with lots of homeless and other such issues that causes.

The video was made from what looks like a position across the street and a little to the side. There is just a few second view of the crime scene as the camera pans.

All the officers had for cover was, well nothing. It's just a grassy lawn, a sidewalk, and the street behind them. There is no other cover for the officers. The street is fairly busy most all the time, it's a major city street route going N/S from I-40.

I'm not a cop, I know nothing of their tactics and such. Just stating a little bit about the geography of the situation, and I don't have a dog in this fight.
.

A car can be cover but its iffy. I spent a week long tactical shotgun course (thanks, PAST recoil shield) learning how to skip OOB or 4B under cars, along sidewalks or hard surfaces and along walls.

You are going back to prison, bro!

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Dumb question: the rounds going through car doors and windows are fmj? Or jhp as well?

Speer gold dot 357SIG 125s.
We did it with 9mm too as most of the female cops carried it in smaller sigs 229&228

And ball ammo did the same, as expected.

Guys with anecdotes about cars as cover: watch some Centrifuge Training stuff on their VCQB class. Any two pillars stacked up are the equivalent of Level IV hard armor. I’ve personally seen POS cars (like a mid 2000s Focus) shot through the B pillar (width wise) by 7.62x39 and .30-06 and neither round penetrated through both B-pillars to a target leaned up against the other pillar. The same cars took dozens of pistol rounds to the A-pillar without a single one penetrating.

From personal experience at the same range session as the above, Even shots through the glass do not tend to be effective until you can punch a hole through the glass through which to shoot. The key to using a vehicle as cover is knowing how to use it: staying behind 2+ pillars is key, but cops never get any training on this shit from our agencies. The only reason we got to do the training we did is because one of our firearms instructors paid over $1500 of his own money to attend Centrifuge’s VCQB Instructor course.

.357 Sig is not going to penetrate any portion of the pillar structure of the car, nor is any handgun or shotgun round. No common rifle round (I have tested up to .30-06 is going to penetrate any two pillars.

I have been through Centrifuge's classes including two of their ballistic demos. I have replicated their results in my own ballistic demos nine more times. This has always been on a shittier car than anybody is using as a police car.

Anything will fall apart if you shoot it enough, but putting a round through the thin skin of a door or through one piece of glass and calling a car "concealment" is foolish.

If I can get myself behind the A-C (car) or A-D (SUV) pillar structure, I feel pretty good about my position, especially compared to having a) nothing or b) a car door.

That matches my experience mostly. The pillars stopped all the handgun bullets, but .223 and a 12ga slug went through a single pillar. I had been told that they wouldn't, and was unpleasantly surprised when they did. We shot an early 2000s Taurus and a Toyota Corolla....maybe newer, bigger cars would do better, but that's what we had to shoot. The other problem is that although I'm a pretty skinny guy, I'm still much wider than the pillars.