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US teen beats world #1 chess player (again) Login/Join 
The Ice Cream Man
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So, Nieman admitted to cheating at 16. He is now 19.

I agree with not playing him.

12 is one thing, but there’s not much personality change between 16 and 19.

Honestly, I’m surprised how lenient the sport is on cheating.

A 1 year ban seems absurdly short.
 
Posts: 4997 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Myrtle Beach, SC | Registered: May 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by x0225095:
Niemann, allegedly, puts radio controlled beads up his ass and cheats by remote control.

I think the hole situation stinks.


I saw what you did there. Smile
 
Posts: 97 | Registered: July 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Baroque Bloke
Picture of Pipe Smoker
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie:
quote:
Originally posted by reloader-1:
Chess player here.

All that Niemann needs is something that notifies him, once a game, that a position is critical. These are super grandmasters, the level and skill they have is incomprehensible for normal players to understand.

Chess by now is almost a solved game (it will never be solved, of course!), and a draw is the most likely outcome. Just that small assistance at a critical point in the match is all that is needed.

Having watched Magnus Carlsen play, I’m sympathetic to him in this. He is by far the best chess player to ever compete, and his anti-cheating stance has been well known.

Hans Niemann cheated, and severely enough to be banned from the largest chess platform (Chess.com). Integrity is something you only have once, and his rise since 2019 is distinctly unusual.


Chess player here too, a somewhat strong one some years ago. One needs more than once a game to recognize a critical position. The opening had been played before and it stands to reason that Niemann had prepared for Carlson.

Niemann admitted to cheating on chess.com. and only after his win against Carlsen was he banned from chess.com. Hmm?

From theguaradian.com.: "The world’s leading expert on cheating in chess, Dr Kenneth Regan, has analysed all of Niemann’s games over the past two years and his conclusion is there is no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating."

So Carlsen loses on purpose. What an arrogant ass.

Thank you Ogie.

“Is Hans Niemann cheating? - World renowned expert Ken Regan analyzes”

Summary: no.

Article from chessbase.com:
https://en.chessbase.com/post/...t-ken-regan-analyzes



Serious about crackers.
 
Posts: 7199 | Location: San Diego | Registered: July 26, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of reloader-1
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Actually, Dr. Regan highlights a very interesting thing… the error rate of players against Hans is higher than normal.

That fits exactly with what Magnus has stated, and with what I outlined above; in a normal game, there are moves that give you a few centipawn as advantage or disadvantage. Hans is a strong enough player that just a notification that there is a critical juncture on the board is enough to “solidify” those advantages.

I.e., if an opponent normally makes 1 error in 50 move game, your error rate is 2%. Playing Hans, if you make an error in turn 25 you will likely resign or make more errors before turn 50, rendering your error rate higher… which is exactly what is occurring.

EDIT: a very important note is that Dr. Regan is analyzing if Hans cheated over time. I don’t think that’s the case, and I don’t think anyone is asserting that. Hans is an excellent player, likely 2680-2700 in strength; he most likely has cheated on a handful of important games, nowhere near enough times to flag something in such a high level analysis.
 
Posts: 2179 | Location: S. FL | Registered: October 26, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
PopeDaddy
Picture of x0225095
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quote:
Originally posted by bubbaturbo:
quote:
Originally posted by x0225095:
Niemann, allegedly, puts radio controlled beads up his ass and cheats by remote control.

I think the hole situation stinks.


I saw what you did there. Smile


Roger that Bubba.


0:01
 
Posts: 3964 | Location: ALABAMA | Registered: January 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Power is nothing
without control
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Couple points:

- the anal bead thing was a joke that has turned into a meme. It isn’t seriously being suggested that is what happened.

- there is no hard evidence that Magnus resigned in protest of anything, only assumption and conjecture. Magnus himself has said nothing about his decision to resign. At least, he hadn’t the last time I checked. If you demand hard evidence that Neimann cheated before condemning him, I assume you would want hard evidence about why Magnus resigned as well. Wouldn’t want to be spreading rumors would we.

- chess.com’s response to Niemann complaining about his ban was to offer to make public all of the data and analysis they had done before deciding to ban him. Neimann did not take them up on that offer and has since stopped complaining that his ban was unfair. So, if there is hard evidence there about recent cheating, it is being kept private by the choice of both chess.com and Niemann. If he wanted to make things public and fight his ban, he could have. The decision not to do so was as much his as chess.com’s

Now for stuff that is just my opinion. Is Magnus a massive troll? Absolutely. Is he using his star power to black-ball this kid? Seems that way. Is he doing that because he is mad he lost? I seriously doubt it. Magnus, from everything I’ve seen, no longer seems to give a shit what happens at major traditional tournaments. He doesn’t care if he win, loses, or even shows up. He is too busy making money on his other projects to care about winning tournaments anymore. That said, he does seem to HATE cheating. He will absolutely cut off his nose to spite his face if it punishes someone who he thinks is a cheater. Niemann is very likely still a cheater. He got caught twice before publicly, and has very likely been caught again by chess.com recently, although the details aren’t public. That it is in electronic games versus over the board really doesn’t matter. Cheating is wrong and has consequences, no matter whether he restricted himself to cheating online or not. You absolutely should not set the precedent that cheating online is somehow different or separate from cheating over the board.

Finally, I am fairly certain that someone hired a publicity firm to get this issue public attention. For several days it was just a small internal drama in the Chess world, and then suddenly I start seeing articles about I pop up in at least half a dozen mainstream news outlets in rapid succession. I believe someone is paying to get this issue pushed into the news, but I don’t know who or why. Regardless, I don’t like people trying to manipulate me, and that feels like what some party is trying to do right now. Unfortunately, I legitimately don’t know which side it is.

- Bret
 
Posts: 2392 | Location: OH | Registered: March 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
"Member"
Picture of cas
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quote:
Originally posted by x0225095:

I think the hole situation stinks.


I would assume he washes them afterwards.
 
Posts: 19852 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Imagination and focus
become reality
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A couple of points: Magnus is a shareholder at chess.com. so it is possible chess.com has a vested interest in the situation.

The argument that a few centipawns advantage is significant is, in my opinion, nonsense.

Also, intentionally losing is tantamount to cheating since it affects the other players in the tournament.

I agree that there needs to be more clarity here, but until it is proven that Niemann cheated one has to assume that he didn't and that Carlsen is a poor sport.
 
Posts: 6183 | Location: Northwest Indiana | Registered: August 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Political Cynic
Picture of nhtagmember
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how do you cheat after one move?
 
Posts: 52327 | Location: Tucson Arizona | Registered: January 16, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of reloader-1
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie:
The argument that a few centipawns advantage is significant is, in my opinion, nonsense.


Then you obviously don’t understand chess in the modern era. A move that gives you a 50-75 cp boost once a game basically ensures a winning outcome.

https://youtu.be/VcbHmHHwlUQ

Here’s a random chess player who lays out what I’ve been referring to…

quote:
Originally posted by sadlerbw:

Finally, I am fairly certain that someone hired a publicity firm to get this issue public attention. For several days it was just a small internal drama in the Chess world, and then suddenly I start seeing articles about I pop up in at least half a dozen mainstream news outlets in rapid succession. I believe someone is paying to get this issue pushed into the news, but I don’t know who or why. Regardless, I don’t like people trying to manipulate me, and that feels like what some party is trying to do right now. Unfortunately, I legitimately don’t know which side it is.

- Bret


No conspiracy or PR campaign here. This was a quiet buzz during the Sinquefield cup earlier this month, and blew up on Monday of this week when Magnus resigned immediately the next time he faces Hans. Chess has exploded in popularity since COVID, with the Netflix show The Queen’s Gambit. It’s as if Usain Bolt refused to race someone who he suspected of doping, even though track and field isn’t a front-page sport it would still make the news… especially if he started running a race and immediately stopped in protest.
 
Posts: 2179 | Location: S. FL | Registered: October 26, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
So how does one cheat at Chess?
A lot of these tournaments are online and you can buy computerized chess sets that can memorize millions of moves and make the best decision every time.

Basically you can set up your computerized game at home next to your computer and when your online opponent makes a move you make the same move on your computerized board and see where the computer reacts. You basically mimic what the computer is doing to your online opponent.
 
Posts: 3170 | Registered: January 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Keystoner
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quote:
Originally posted by reloader-1:

https://youtu.be/VcbHmHHwlUQ

Here’s a random chess player who lays out what I’ve been referring to…


I watched this interview with Carlsen. He mentions recognizing suspicious moves being "not human." He's referring to engine moves. I'm with him here, for now. With the progression of time, after engines are extensively utilized to analyze games, it seems very logical to me that we humans will eventually be making what we're now calling non-human moves. We've already had engines long enough, plus databases of every game a player has played, that it is not unbelievable to me that Niemann studied and analyzed enough of Carlsen's game to come up with a successful plan to beat him. Using an engine this way is not cheating. It's a tool available to every player.



And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.
—John 8:32
 
Posts: 2450 | Registered: November 05, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Thank you
Very little
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Posts: 19799 | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Imagination and focus
become reality
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quote:
Then you obviously don’t understand chess in the modern era. A move that gives you a 50-75 cp boost once a game basically ensures a winning outcome



I understand modern chess just fine. A 3/4 pawn advantage does not "ensure" a winning game.

I have recent chess books that use Stockfish or other strong chess engines for analysis. If you used those moves that are recommended in those books, are you cheating?
 
Posts: 6183 | Location: Northwest Indiana | Registered: August 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of reloader-1
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie:
quote:
Then you obviously don’t understand chess in the modern era. A move that gives you a 50-75 cp boost once a game basically ensures a winning outcome



I understand modern chess just fine. A 3/4 pawn advantage does not "ensure" a winning game.

I have recent chess books that use Stockfish or Leela Chess Zero for analysis. If you used those moves that are recommended in those books, are you cheating?


Of course not! Prep is prep, the only way it would be cheating is if you were notified in game or something, or if you stole the opponent’s opening and prepared lines.

75 CP at the super-GM level is a nearly won game, my friend. That’s almost pawn odds, especially as white that’s near insurmountable.

Correction: I checked the math, it’s an incredible advantage. https://www.chessprogramming.o..._Percentage,_and_Elo



75 centipawn give you a 60.6% win probability, which makes logical sense. It’s not linear, but a centipawn (1/100 pawn) is a roughly 0.14% advantage. To give you an analogy, the lowest casino advantage of 0.42% in blackjack, assuming perfect play, is still enough to make the house win over time. That’s 3 centipawns in this example!
 
Posts: 2179 | Location: S. FL | Registered: October 26, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
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What's "modern chess"?

I played as a young man and could probably still give a serious player a run for their money. I fail to see what modernity has to do with this ancient game.
 
Posts: 98946 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Para, chess is chess. The game you played is still the same one today.

The difference is that we now have the advantage of chess libraries (basically every game ever played) and supercomputers that can analyze and break down games. Someone like Fischer, for example, was limited by the time and analysis they could put in on games that had been played so far (and published! Hence why many top players learned Russian, in order to digest more games), and their team. Now, supercomputers can analyze lines 25, 50 or 100 moves deep, and that has led to different strategies and a more balanced game (that leads to more draws).

For example, one of my favorite players of all time is Mikhail Tal, who played in the mid-20th century. His style was bold, attacking and creative, with sacrifices and combinations. That style of play today would likely be crushed by a strong GM, as they have the advantage of prep and lines that Mikhail could never have dreamed of.

At the super GM level, these players have memorized thousands of games and lines, it’s almost superhuman.

Edit: an article that basically outlines the above, there’s more depth obviously - https://bigthink.com/high-culture/chess-computers/
 
Posts: 2179 | Location: S. FL | Registered: October 26, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
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Well, here's an idea- how about they just keep computers all the way the fuck out of the game?

How's that sound? Because from what I'm hearing, computers are not enriching the experience of playing; quite the opposite, actually.

Let's sit down, set up the board, determine who moves first, and just play. We don't consult any fucking computer programs or websites. Chess does not have lifelines.

I know you'll tell me that's not exactly what's happening, but what I am saying is that it sounds like computers and all these calculations, running every possible sequence of moves, are ruining the game. When you guys start talking about "modern chess" you must be referring to some other game.


____________________________________________________

"You know, a long time ago, being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy." - Charles Manson
 
Posts: 98946 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I agree 100% para, that’s exactly what has happened. Computers have ruined chess in many ways. Worse is that once something “new” is discovered and played, everyone else studies it and is prepared against it in the future. It’s horrible.

It’s similar to damn near every sport, it used to be that you could be an athletically gifted teen and might succeed in your chosen sport, and perhaps even go far. Now, you basically need to have started playing at age 3, with parents that can afford private coaching, and also be in the top 0.01% of optimal height/weight etc to even dream of playing. It’s rendered something fun, into a factory.
 
Posts: 2179 | Location: S. FL | Registered: October 26, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Imagination and focus
become reality
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quote:
75 centipawn give you a 60.6% win probability, which makes logical sense.


reloader-1:

Math doesn't move the chess pieces.

Just out of curiosity, what is your USCF rating?
 
Posts: 6183 | Location: Northwest Indiana | Registered: August 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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