The violation is relatively minor, in that no physical contact ever took place, as far as we know. He’s not going to be busted to private, given a DD and shipped off to Ft. Leavenworth.

Some of the communications were foolish, certainly, but nothing like Carlos Danger. I assume he has more then 20 years in, so probably he’s looking at retiring starless, in relative disgrace, won’t get to park close to the door at the O Club and all the other perks of being a retired Flag officer.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
The violation is relatively minor, in that no physical contact ever took place.........

He’s not going to be busted to private, given a DD and shipped off to Ft. Leavenworth.

In a civilian context perhaps it is minor although I also despise infidelity. In the context of leadership and warriors, he is absolutely disgusting and should be shamed and discharged. You’re right he won’t be sent to prison. Too bad. Fuck him.

quote:

Originally posted by arabiancowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
The violation is relatively minor, in that no physical contact ever took place.........

He’s not going to be busted to private, given a DD and shipped off to Ft. Leavenworth.

In a civilian context perhaps it is minor although I also despise infidelity. In the context of leadership and warriors, he is absolutely disgusting and should be shamed and discharged. You’re right he won’t be sent to prison. Too bad. Fuck him.

You didn’t read it all. As these things go, “it is relatively minor, in that no physical contact ever took place...”. Nothing civilian to it. If this was a 6 month full on affair, the consequences would be much, much worse.

You know he isn’t likely to be discharged.

Perhaps an analogy would be a first dwi near the limit, compared to a 3 times the limit with a severe crash. You aren’t going to jail on the first one, barely over the limit. The public doesn’t support test. The more extreme one, yes, much more likely.

quote:

Originally posted by ac26:...
Sigmonkey – what is the medal / ribbon / patch image you posted. My google fu failed to find it.

The "Blue Falcon" with devices...

I took the idea, and the patch existed, and made the decoration.


And JALLEN, I disagree very strongly that this is minor in degree and be considered in the manner of aircraft mishaps or any other thing.

The man knew that such a breech of trust is the worst thing a military leader can do. It affects the entire core value and moral precedent in military Esprit de Corps and proper Bearing and Behavior.

A man or women puts their ass on the line, and the whole of the military, in "spirit and in deed" knows in his core and in the process of become a "brother/sister in arms", that the family is the most important thing a G.I. cherishes.

For one who violates that and crosses the line (he did, physical contact be damned), then he is a pariah, and should be shunned and shamed as I am thinking will happen.

This man could be granted a pardon, but he will never have the respect of any SSAM or Coastie.

Might as well call in Broken Arrow, cuz; "My God... The'res no hiding it now."

quote:

The "Blue Falcon" with devices...

Thanks – I might suggest replacing the hawk with a bullet hole and awarding it to Bowe Bergdahl
But I sometimes tend to over react.

The more I think about it, short of flogging the guy - the most fitting punishment would indeed be keeping him around with a new nametag that simply henceforth said "Jody", as a runner in the Pentagon or something, paraded around for his peers to see on a daily.

The Monkey nailed it. The General literally stooped to the lowest low that every private has been warned about within their first few weeks, for decades now. There're songs about it, for fuck's sake. It may be the single biggest unofficial lesson the ARMY teaches.

What a trashy man, and with/to another soldier's wife to boot, a lower ranking one too. It is truly inexcusable to do that, in that context, for someone in his position in particular. Obviously, actually flogging anyone over simple infidelity is too much, but he deserves it.

I'm like the monkey, first thing I thought of was David and Bathsheba.

Says he was on the same post, but I take it by that description that he was not in a direct chain of command position over the enlisted soldier. He sucks either way, but if he were in a position to control or influence the destiny of the enlisted soldier, that would (for me) warrant a more severe punishment.

quote:

Originally posted by ac26:

quote:

The "Blue Falcon" with devices...

Thanks – I might suggest replacing the hawk with a bullet hole and awarding it to Bowe Bergdahl
But I sometimes tend to over react.

I rekon it could be used as an "aiming aid"...

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:

quote:

Originally posted by ac26:...
Sigmonkey – what is the medal / ribbon / patch image you posted. My google fu failed to find it.

The "Blue Falcon" with devices...

I took the idea, and the patch existed, and made the decoration.


And JALLEN, I disagree very strongly that this is minor in degree and be considered in the manner of aircraft mishaps or any other thing.

Does the word “relatively” have any meaning?

Where did you get the aircraft mishaps bit? I used a dwi to illustrate various degrees of misconduct and the levels of punishment.

quote:

The man knew that such a breech of trust is the worst thing a military leader can do. It affects the entire core value and moral precedent in military Esprit de Corps and proper Bearing and Behavior.

A man or women puts their ass on the line, and the whole of the military, in "spirit and in deed" knows in his core and in the process of become a "brother/sister in arms", that the family is the most important thing a G.I. cherishes.

For one who violates that and crosses the line (he did, physical contact be damned), then he is a pariah, and should be shunned and shamed as I am thinking will happen.

This man could be granted a pardon, but he will never have the respect of any SSAM or Coastie.

Might as well call in Broken Arrow, cuz; "My God... The'res no hiding it now."

There seems to have arisen a degree of sanctimony about mating rituals that was noticeably absent in my time in the military. There were not many females in the service back then, but there were lots of WestPac widows to be entertained in the bars and dance clubs. It’s always less than honorable to monkey with someone else's monkey.

The main thing is that it has been publicized now. It can't be pushed under the rug so they will make an example of this guy now.

Civilians likely don't understand. There was a time when a sailor caught in enlisted housing when the ship/fleet was out would go to jail. A general with command authority is even worse. The man literally holds the power of life and death over what may well be a man in his command. He is filth.

Jody is a composite character. He is based on zoot-suited hip-hoppers of the WWII era, who were often classified as "4F" for the draft, that is, physically and/or mentally unfit for service. Since there was a extreme shortage of eligible men, "Jody" took full advantage. Many considered this type behavior worthy of summary execution. Off the books, I believe some of that actually took place.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
Such a serious act on his part.
A grievous thing to steal and betray the very men he is to lead and defend.

David was a might and beloved King.

Had the best place in the Holy land, and was in favor with God.

And he ended up murdering a man, taking his wife and it cost him everything.


David's place was on the battlefield not on Bathsheba.

A man of such power, when "out of place", will likely do contrary and destroy the very thing he is to protect.

Seems the General failed.

Thus endeth the lesson.

AND... It didnt stop there, his firstborn died, and another son tried to kill him! His whole family was jacked up, he had a choice all right but he didnt get to choose the consequences.

But in todays paradigm of "relativity", meh, theres no absolute truth, so each man just does what HE thinks is right in his own mind.

Kinda like taking a thimble full of cyanide and pouring it into a five gallon barrel of pure water, the water is polluted... forever
But some will say, its ONLY a thimble full not a whole gallon.
Well then, YOU drink it, not for me.

David then covered in sackcloth and ashes, a sign to outwardly show a total change in heart behavior.
Guess the jury's still out on this clown

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by arabiancowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
The violation is relatively minor, in that no physical contact ever took place.........

He’s not going to be busted to private, given a DD and shipped off to Ft. Leavenworth.

In a civilian context perhaps it is minor although I also despise infidelity. In the context of leadership and warriors, he is absolutely disgusting and should be shamed and discharged. You’re right he won’t be sent to prison. Too bad. Fuck him.

You didn’t read it all. As these things go, “it is relatively minor, in that no physical contact ever took place...”. Nothing civilian to it. If this was a 6 month full on affair, the consequences would be much, much worse.

You know he isn’t likely to be discharged.

Perhaps an analogy would be a first dwi near the limit, compared to a 3 times the limit with a severe crash. You aren’t going to jail on the first one, barely over the limit. The public doesn’t support test. The more extreme one, yes, much more likely.

Yes I read your entire post. Perhaps I was unclear in my reply: you say this is a minor thing. It is not. Flirting with a subordinates Wife is not minor in the military from a morality point of view. Sure it’s minor from a legal standpoint, and you’re right that he won’t be discharged. However, from a philosophical and ethical POV, it is disgusting and this general is disgusting.

Back when I was first assigned to Germany, we had a 1st LT who was in charge of the post "special police" detachment. That meant that he never went to the field with the rest of us.

He would go to the housing areas and screw the wives of enlisted troops. It was fairly common knowledge, too.

Eventually he ended up in bed with the colonel's wife. That word got out when observers in the housing area spread the word.

That Lt. was charged and dismissed from the military. Rightfully so.

One can preach all one wishes about it taking two to tango, but that Lt violated the rules of official conduct and propriety.

And that is precisely what should happen to the asshole in question in this discussion.

But then I am an old fart who still believes that when one takes an oath, that there is no excuse for violating that oath.

quote:

Originally posted by arabiancowboy:


Yes I read your entire post. Perhaps I was unclear in my reply: you say this is a minor thing. It is not. Flirting with a subordinates Wife is not minor in the military from a morality point of view. Sure it’s minor from a legal standpoint, and you’re right that he won’t be discharged. However, from a philosophical and ethical POV, it is disgusting and this general is disgusting.

You read my entire post, but did not understand it. Perhaps that is my fault.

We can agree that adultery is not minor, disgusting, intolerable, the gravest offense in this category of conduct.

Flirting (whatever that includes) is far less grave, less intolerable, n’est pas?

Now, where does flirting begin as opposed to ordinary social interaction with the opposite sex?

Is it objectionable that this General Officer holds the door for the soldier’s wife at the Exchange? What about holding the door for only the prettiest ones? What about at some reception, chatting her up? What about other social interactions, random, spontaneous? Must the General avoid every contact with civilian females at the risk of honor and career?

Now the phone messages the General sent in this case are quite a bit up the scale of relativity from the harmless and triviality social interactions, but far, far beneath the gravamen of a full on affair.

This is and should be a career wrecker, a confidence loser. Where does it compare, for example, with the CO’s of the two destroyers whose failings resulted in 17 deaths?

The consequences some of you desire do not align with the offense.

quote:

Originally posted by Surefire:
The consequences some of you desire do not align with the offense.

Of course (technically).

Philosophically, however...

quote:

Originally posted by Surefire:
The consequences some of you desire do not align with the offense.

Look at this way. If the general was of lesser rank and still in the field his comments could get him fragged.

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:

quote:

Originally posted by Surefire:
The consequences some of you desire do not align with the offense.

Of course (technically).

Philosophically, however...

Exactly. I understand that legally it’s likely no significant punishment will happen. That is an indictment of our legal system rather than commentary on the severity of his offense. A 2star flirting with the wife of a man he could order into death is, ethically, indefensible and contemptable in the highest degree. It is a betrayal of the fundamental philosophical role of warrior and leader.

I get it, in our world his “punishment” is diminished chance of further advancement. My personal opinion is that his punishment should be permanent banishment from our ranks via dishonorable discharge. JALLEN, I appreciate your challenge to determine exactly where the line is between being polite and being flirtatious. I don’t know, Good question. “I know it when I see it” is the only reply my non-litigious mind can muster.