quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
Yep. I read some local officials asked the USACE to bring the level down to 8 feet and they said no because a drought could impact reservations and sugar farms. They have a book and they don't care what else happens.

When asked, they admitted the lower lake level would still support the needs of the farms that draw on it, even in a drought. A lower lake level would have the added benefit of not requiring billions and billions to be spent to raise the level of the dikes. The lower level would, in theory, raise the safety margin of the current dikes and have the added benefit of not harming the ecosystem of a large area of the west coast.

All around, there appear to be more options with a lower lake level. The Army Corps said something about being concerned a lower level would kill off marshes and fish that thrive in the lake with the higher level. That is a strange argument given the numbers of endangered animals killed off in the past few months. Not to mention what this is going to do to tourism and real estate prices on the west coast of Florida if this problem continues indefinitely with no solution in sight.

The lake is a highway for boats and yachts to cross from one side of the state to the other. I take yachts across it at least once a year, sometimes several times a year. The issue here is there are 10's of thousands of homeowners that have boats and yachts and enjoy the lake, rivers, and etc. This would make the lake and canals un-navigable and put a lot of places that rely on fishing, like Roland Martins, un-usable because you couldn't launch a bass boat and get it to the lake.

Also the major issue is the lake feeds our fresh water drinking aquafer. Lowering the level too much puts all of Southern Florida on water restrictions and such.

Around 2011 they dumped way too much water and for 3 years we were on water restrictions and couldn't wash cars, water lawns, except for a few hour period on certain days, etc. etc. Also all of the home owners had boats and yachts that were trapped between locks, or stuck at the dock and couldn't be moved or used.


They really need to get the fertilizer issue under control as this has been a recent thing over the past 10 years. The lake USED to be really nice...….clear, greenish blue water. The other fix possibly, might be to create a very very large retention pond where the water can evaporate, instead of dumping it. Lowering the water level to 8' isn't the answer as it kills off tons of vegetation and fish spawning area's and the vegetation does help filter the lake as well.

It's a very complex problem, but the bottom line is the Lake's issues are created by fertilizer.


Even the big sugar South dumps into the lake. They have large canals fed from the lake, in times when there is a lot of rain, like right now, the sugar cane fields drain the water and tons of fertilizer into the irrigation supply canals feeding big sugar......the canals get to where they're going to overflow, so they open the dam and let the water backflow into the lake as it's now higher...…


Really, there is no reason for big sugar. It's not profitable, it couldn't make a profit if it weren't for the HUGE subsidies from the government. It doesn't employ that many US Citizens. Problem is, they spend MILLIONS and MILLIONS on lobbyists and campaign donations and have an entire office building of full time lawyers on salary, and the family that owns it pockets $100's of millions in profit each year. Also the other sugar fields on the West side of the lake (Belle Glade, Clewiston) do dump into Lake O.

Look at how many Billions are lost in tourism with all of these red tides. Hotels,resorts, fishing guides, commercial fisherman, boat rental places, restaurants are all sucking wind in Ft. Myers/Sanibel and Stuart areas when this happens.

It is a HUGE mess.

Edited to add: Also don't let the lake level fool you. It's currently at 14.53' right now which is high. BUT, the navigable draft for crossing the lake is only 8.47' and most boats need at least 6' to cross the lake. The rim canal where all of the fishing camps are located is even shallower at 6.67'. You're not going to really want to run your bass boat in less than 4' and even then is cause for concern if something is on the bottom. If they're lowered the lake level to 8', ALL of the rim canal or edge of the lake would be dry, and you couldn't launch a single boat to go fishing ruining an entire industry.

w3.saj.usace.army.mil/h2o/currentLL.shtml


They've been rebuilding the levies and quite honestly they're not that complicated of a deal to begin with......they're simply a really high mound of dirt with a bunch of big rocks dropped in front of the dirt....

jimmy123x, thank you for the details. That's more than I've read anywhere else.

If the green algae starts in the lake, and the brevetoxins come from the algae, how is it the water systems fed by the lake do not end up with brevetoxins in the water supply? It is supposed to be very difficult to purify water once the toxins are in it.

quote:

Originally posted by doublesharp:
Lake at anything under 12 makes it non navigable. Moore Haven would be land locked. You can't let your boat off plane at 12 ft because there isn't enough water to get back up. Lots of big boat cross the lake to get to Stuart or Miami. Drastically lower lake isn't the answer as it needs to be from 13 to 15 or the keys will have no drinking water.

A plan that has merit is to dig a multi thousand acre retention pond. Excess water goes there.

Much info here:

http://www.saj.usace.army.mil/LOWRP/

https://www.sfwmd.gov/our-work...oject-planning/lowrp

https://www.sfwmd.gov/

They said it wouldn't impact other areas having water, so I'm assuming that includes drinking water to other areas. Maybe they meet in the middle and make it 10 feet? There has to be something to prevent the huge dumps of water.

I'm sorry if people wouldn't be able to drive their yachts across the water, but I don't see any other short term options. Something has to be done to save the SW part of the state because it is being destroyed. I'm guessing any other solution is going to take years, which they don't have. Maybe they restrict what boats can cross until they dig out that retention pond you spoke of?

I don't know what the answer is, but something has to be done. It seems like no matter what someone is going to have to be inconvenienced.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:

quote:

Originally posted by doublesharp:
Lake at anything under 12 makes it non navigable. Moore Haven would be land locked. You can't let your boat off plane at 12 ft because there isn't enough water to get back up. Lots of big boat cross the lake to get to Stuart or Miami. Drastically lower lake isn't the answer as it needs to be from 13 to 15 or the keys will have no drinking water.

A plan that has merit is to dig a multi thousand acre retention pond. Excess water goes there.

Much info here:

http://www.saj.usace.army.mil/LOWRP/

https://www.sfwmd.gov/our-work...oject-planning/lowrp

https://www.sfwmd.gov/

They said it wouldn't impact other areas having water, so I'm assuming that includes drinking water to other areas. Maybe they meet in the middle and make it 10 feet?

I'm sorry if people wouldn't be able to drive their yachts across the water, but I don't see any other short term options. Something has to be done to save the SW part of the state because it is being destroyed. I'm guessing any other solution is going to take years, which they don't have. Maybe they restrict what boats can cross until they dig out that retention pond you spoke of.

I don't know what the answer is, but something has to be done. It seems like no matter what someone is going to have to be inconvenienced.

It's more complicated than that. Entire cities, Belle Glade, Clewiston, and Moore Haven would be economically devastated as tons of tourists come to fish the lake every year or for Bass tournaments. Entire waterfront marinas would be high and dry. The marsh, which is in the shallow areas of the lake, are what filter the contaminants out of the lake. Lowering the level that much, would turn it into a sewage pond and in order to lower it that much AND keep it that low, would have constant red tide in Sanibel/Ft. Myers/Stuart areas......to put it lightly, it would be a complete disaster to the ecosystem.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:


It's more complicated than that. Entire cities, Belle Glade, Clewiston, and Moore Haven would be economically devastated as tons of tourists come to fish the lake every year or for Bass tournaments. Entire waterfront marinas would be high and dry. The marsh, which is in the shallow areas of the lake, are what filter the contaminants out of the lake. Lowering the level that much, would turn it into a sewage pond and in order to lower it that much AND keep it that low, would have constant red tide in Sanibel/Ft. Myers/Stuart areas......to put it lightly, it would be a complete disaster to the ecosystem.

I understand, but the entire SW part of the state is having their tourism industry destroyed from Naples to Tampa. Maybe that isn't the answer, but it's the one the local communities are calling for. It doesn't seem like there is an easy answer, but doing nothing or waiting a few years for a retention pond or a wall isn't feasible either.

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:
jimmy123x, thank you for the details. That's more than I've read anywhere else.

If the green algae starts in the lake, and the brevetoxins come from the algae, how is it the water systems fed by the lake do not end up with brevetoxins in the water supply? It is supposed to be very difficult to purify water once the toxins are in it.

It is naturally filtered by the sand and limestone on it's way to the aquafer. South Florida has done a great job in reducing it's freshwater use, and the health of our reefs through Oasis program. South Florida used to pump all of it's waste water (sewer water) directly into the ocean after it was treated in 100' of water. Now, many cities in South Florida are treating the waste water and plumbing all of the neighborhoods and even providing free runs to houses irrigation systems so that the waste water is used for irrigating lawns. This has a double fold reward, as the billions of gallons of freshwater are not pumped over the reef in 100' of water in the ocean anymore AND we're not using drinking water to water our lawns so it's really reduced our need for drinking water because it's not being wasted on lawns.

http://www.miamidade.gov/water/biscayne-aquifer.asp

"The Biscayne Aquifer is located just below the surface of the land in South Florida. It is made out of porous rock with tiny cracks and holes. Water then seeps in and fills these tiny cracks and holes.
This water is often referred to as groundwater or the water table, and provides virtually all of the water that is used by South Florida residents, visitors and businesses. This water is generally clean due to the effects of natural filtration.
The water is actually flowing like an underground river at a very slow rate. Generally it travels in an east-southeasterly direction at a rate of only about two feet per day. However, where there are very large openings or man-made canals the flow rate can increase substantially.
Because this drinking water supply is so close to the surface (barely a few feet down in most places), it is especially prone to contamination. Typically an underground water system can cleanse itself of low levels of contaminants in at least two ways.
First, natural dilution, (the "thinning out" of contaminants caused by dispersal into a large water body) can reduced minor contaminant concentrations to levels that are no longer considered harmful.
The second is the ability of a water system to clean itself through the natural filtration described earlier and through the breakdown of trapped contaminants by soil bacteria.
However, the Biscayne Aquifer has unique physical characteristics that make neither of these systems entirely reliable. This, compounded by the fact that millions of gallons of water are pumped out of the ground each day, contributes to the vulnerability of the region's groundwater supply.
This is why efforts are made to protect the groundwater. Miami-Dade County, in cooperation with other local, state and federal agencies, works to safeguard the supply source for drinking water. This may result in environmental regulations for businesses in the South Florida area being more stringent than other areas of the country, but it is necessary to protect the health of everyone dependent on clean water.
Being proactive can also forestall expensive water treatment processes at our water treatment plants."

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:


It's more complicated than that. Entire cities, Belle Glade, Clewiston, and Moore Haven would be economically devastated as tons of tourists come to fish the lake every year or for Bass tournaments. Entire waterfront marinas would be high and dry. The marsh, which is in the shallow areas of the lake, are what filter the contaminants out of the lake. Lowering the level that much, would turn it into a sewage pond and in order to lower it that much AND keep it that low, would have constant red tide in Sanibel/Ft. Myers/Stuart areas......to put it lightly, it would be a complete disaster to the ecosystem.

I understand, but the entire SW part of the state is having their tourism industry destroyed from Naples to Tampa. Maybe that isn't the answer, but it's the one the local communities are calling for. It doesn't seem like there is an easy answer, but doing nothing or waiting a few years for a retention pond or a wall isn't feasible either.

How do you get the lake level to 8' AND keep it there? By dumping tons of freshwater for several months straight, and those areas effected would have red tide for months and months instead of a few weeks. Then they'd have to constantly dump during the rainy season, to keep it at 8'.

Some local cities essentially said dump it out now and get it over with, but I guess that isn't a good answer either. From what you posted above it all comes down to getting sugar companies to stop dumping into the lake, which won't happen. I guess SW Florida is going to have to live with their tourism industry and real estate prices both crashing.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ackks,

Cut the excess fertilizer and see what happens.

The answer is stop the sugar price supports but that will never happen. U.S. Sugar ties the price support to social security will end propaganda. Saturate the old folks with the dire warnings and then run tour buses over to Clewiston where they are fed lunch at the Clewiston Inn and fed more propoganda. when the vote comes US Sugar always wins. Get the fertilizer out and God will clean the lake up. It will take some time but a few fires and a couple hurricanes and Big O will bounce back.

Corp of Engineers put the curves back in the Kississeme so that helps filter the mouse turds that helps but big sugar is the culprit. If memory serves we're talking about 7 family owned corporations that make up USA sugar industry and they are feeding at the sugar subsidy sugar tit. Without price supports cost of living would go down and maybe the greedy bastids would get away from high fructose corn syrup and go back to using real sugar in our junkfood.

Seems less than 3% of the phosphorus being dumped into Okeechobee comes from "Big Sugar" while the vast majority comes from agriculture, cattle and citrus operations on lands to the north, west and east of Okeechobee that drain into Okeechobee.

Link

"Although many environmentalists blame "Big Sugar," the cane fields of U.S. Sugar and Florida Crystals around the southern rim of the lake today account for only a small percentage of its phosphorus.

About 37 percent comes from land to the north that drains into the Kissimmee River, according to a 2015 report by the South Florida Water Management District. This includes vegetable farms, citrus groves, cattle ranches, dairy farms and neighborhoods as far north as the Orlando suburbs, where lawn fertilizer, animal waste and other sources of phosphorus wash into the river, which feeds into the lake.

Only 5.8 percent came from the lands where the sugar fields are located, along with towns and other kinds of farms.

Judy Sanchez, spokeswoman for U.S. Sugar, said the industry has sharply reduced discharges to less than three percent of what's going into the lake."

Okeechobee, in it's current form, allows the sugarcane industry in the Everglades Agricultural Area to exist. The control of water draining into the lake from the north, east, and west keeps the water level in the E.A.A. consistent. Sugarcane takes over a year from planting to harvesting. To protect the integrity of Lake O's levees and prevent flooding of the E.A.A., water is released to the Caloosahatchee River to the west and the St. Lucie Canal to the east. The water used to flow south to the Everglades. In this respect, "Big Sugar" is responsible for the nutrient rich waters being dumped into the Gulf and Atlantic. "Big Sugar" however, is not the source of the nutrients themselves.

Thank you, trapper 189, for those details. I wonder how much of the pollutants come from large citrus groves and cattle ranches?

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Seems less than 3% of the phosphorus being dumped into Okeechobee comes from "Big Sugar" while the vast majority comes from agriculture, cattle and citrus operations on lands to the north, west and east of Okeechobee that drain into Okeechobee.

Link

"Although many environmentalists blame "Big Sugar," the cane fields of U.S. Sugar and Florida Crystals around the southern rim of the lake today account for only a small percentage of its phosphorus.

About 37 percent comes from land to the north that drains into the Kissimmee River, according to a 2015 report by the South Florida Water Management District. This includes vegetable farms, citrus groves, cattle ranches, dairy farms and neighborhoods as far north as the Orlando suburbs, where lawn fertilizer, animal waste and other sources of phosphorus wash into the river, which feeds into the lake.

Only 5.8 percent came from the lands where the sugar fields are located, along with towns and other kinds of farms.

Judy Sanchez, spokeswoman for U.S. Sugar, said the industry has sharply reduced discharges to less than three percent of what's going into the lake."

of the E.A.A., water is released to the Caloosahatchee River to the west and the St. Lucie Canal to the east. The water used to flow south to the Everglades. In this respect, "Big Sugar" is responsible for the nutrient rich waters being dumped into the Gulf and Atlantic. "Big Sugar" however, is not the source of the nutrients themselves.

If this were only true. From the same article. If 37% of the phosphorus comes from the North, where does the other 63% come from???? The East side of the lake isn't even habituated. The West has a decent amount of houses and a levy between them. (Below from the same article you linked to).


David FleshlerContact Reporter
Sun Sentinel


Algae problem isn't mainly Big Sugar's fault


Privacy Policy

The algae fouling South Florida beaches traces its origin to cattle ranches, farms and neighborhoods as far north as Orlando.
A vast area drains into Lake Okeechobee, where water laden with phosphorus has fertilized the growth of horrific algae blooms that have been discharged to the ocean. The target phosphorus level for the lake is 105 metric tons a year. Last year, the lake received 450.

\About 37 percent comes from land to the north that drains into the Kissimmee River, according to a 2015 report by the South Florida Water Management District. This includes vegetable farms, citrus groves, cattle ranches, dairy farms and neighborhoods as far north as the Orlando suburbs, where lawn fertilizer, animal waste and other sources of phosphorus wash into the river, which feeds into the lake.

Only 5.8 percent came from the lands where the sugar fields are located, along with towns and other kinds of farms.

While the sugar industry's discharges to the lake are minimal compared to other sources, that wasn't the case in the past. A 1992 study found that sugarcane fields and sugar mills accounted for 28 percent of the lake's phosphorus.
"There is a historic load of phosphorus already in Lake Okeechobee that came from the sugar farms," Draper said. "There is a current load, even if it is not a major percentage, coming from the sugar farms. We have had longstanding plans to move some of the that water to the sugar farm land, and the sugar industry went from being favorable to that strategy to lobbying against it."
dfleshler@sunsentinel.com, 954-356-4535

Reading this from far away it is difficult to discern what is causing the issues, and what should be done to fix things. It has been helpful to read the opinions of SF members from that area. Obviously you know a lot about what is going on. I think many of you could help fix things if you had the influence to do it.

I hope a way is found to fix things and balance the needs of the residents throughout the area. It's a beautiful place and everyone there deserves better than the things that have happened this summer.

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:
Reading this from far away it is difficult to discern what is causing the issues, and what should be done to fix things. It has been helpful to read the opinions of SF members from that area. Obviously you know a lot about what is going on. I think many of you could help fix things if you had the influence to do it.

I hope a way is found to fix things and balance the needs of the residents throughout the area. It's a beautiful place and everyone there deserves better than the things that have happened this summer.

It's a tough situation all around and there really is no easy fix. A retention pond that the water could get sent to would be a big help. Anytime the government has screwed with mother nature and an ecosystem it has never worked out well. They initially drained the lake and put the levies and locks so we now have all of that land that's been built on....Weston, Parkland, Loxahatchee, West West Palm Beach.....that all used to be wetlands or swamp land.

The red tide thing happens and severely effects both Stuart and Ft. Myers areas for a short period of time. Not every year, but usually every 3-4 years. Luckily our rainy season (which fills the lake to where they have to dump water) is in the summer time, which tends to coincide with the effected red tide area's low season, so while they lose some business, it's not during their tourist season. And, like everything, a few months later most everyone forgot it even happened.

It's really unfortunate that the eco system does get hit pretty hard for a short period of time, but does always rebound. Question is, how many more times will it rebound.

The other reason for more and more fertilization is when they first drained lake Okeechobee, the soil was extremely rich, but after years and years and years of planting on it, that richness was used up, so now they throw more and more fertilizer on it.

But really, why does the government need to subsidize an industry (sugar cane) that really doesn't provide many jobs, and couldn't stand on it's own.

I was in Sarasota last Thursday and Friday. The air is nasty and vile. The water is indescribable. I was happy to come back to the East coast where our beaches are closed too for green and blue algae. Our waterways are doomed for the present.

quote:

Originally posted by Tommydogg:
I was in Sarasota last Thursday and Friday. The air is nasty and vile. The water is indescribable. I was happy to come back to the East coast where our beaches are closed too for green and blue algae. Our waterways are doomed for the present.

I'm amazed people there put up with this. I understand, what can they do about it, but if it is that bad, I would suspect people would be more and more vocal as time goes on.

quote:

where does the other 63% come from????

There are 19 basins in the Lake Okeechobee Watershed. Suprisingly, 10% of the phosphorus in Lake O comes from the rainwater itself that falls on the 4,400 square miles of land that drain into Lake O. Another 35% come from just 4 primarily agricultural basins covering just 450 square miles. Another 35% comes from the semiurban areas located in remaining basins. I haven't found the source yet for the remaining 17%. I have found articles from 2016 saying tbe sugar lands no longer back pump water into Lake O except in extreme emergencies.

It is a complicated problem. If you just let the water flow south as it used to, the chemistry in the water of the Everglades will change and native plants and the animals that depend on them won't survive. Over 30 years ago, the FDEP set a target of 150 metric tons of phosphorus entering Lake O annually. That actual amount has been 450 metric tons a year or more. Steps to limit phosphorus from entering Lake O have been voluntary and not working. Besides sugar, you have cattle, citrus, other agriculture, and dairy. All big money. The semi-urban areas also share responsibilty.

So is Gordon going to help with the red tide or make things worse because of the rain?

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
So is Gordon going to help with the red tide or make things worse because of the rain?

was wondering the same thing

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