Mary said “Yes, I am the hand-maiden of the Lord. Be it done unto to me according to Thy will”. Joseph’s actions, independently, reflected the same intent despite, and in rebuke of, the custom and common law of the day. Choose life. There is no better example.

Once you start parsing the words of what “life” is you quickly slide down that slippery slope of who gets to decide what life is, where does it come from, who’s life is most worthy, when it isn’t convenient and for whom it doesn’t belong and before you know it you are sending people to the gas chamber or the abortion clinic.

As a Christian, your mission is only to speak, and live, the truth.

Whether it is accepted or not is the other person’s mission.

Speak the truth, pray, leave it in the Hands of God and move on.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
... but reality says sometimes it really is the best bad option.

Murdering a baby is never...ever...the best option. It is never any option.

My brother!

Never...ever...

Living with the fallout for 38 years.

My (3rd) ex-wife had three abortions (many years before we became a "thing").

We were blessed to have a daughter, who will be having a daughter of her own in the spring of this year.

(me and the (3rd) ex are still on mutually supportive partnership after 28 years of trying and dying, plus 10 years after...)

No matter how many times the subject came up, and her being both remorseful and contrite, no matter my being supportive and understanding of what she had experienced, without "judging her", she has never been able to get past it, and the guilt, same and deep regret is difficult to observe with her.

She is in her 70s. (and still dealing with choices made more than 50 years ago)

My hope and prayers are that this granddaughter will help her in some way, being a new life that she has direct connection to bringing forth.


(I never wanted to be "...eating a steady diet of government cheese, thrice divorced, and living in a van down by the river!")

The point?

Many never get over what they have done.

"New Life" has a way of helping heal and providing a rope that can lead to redemption/salvation.


This is another place where :Never give up, never surrender" and "Never Again" have a solid standing in the "discussion".

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
... but reality says sometimes it really is the best bad option.

Murdering a baby is never...ever...the best option. It is never any option.

Burying your head in the sand is not going to serve you.

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
... but reality says sometimes it really is the best bad option.

State your case [example(s)] of your reality.

So we can attempt to reason and understand the need for this "best bad option".

And bring your lunch.

I hope we can avoid arguing amongst ourselves. If we're willing to have that discussion, then we ought to be more willing to converse with the enemy. Perhaps this is the root of the potential "nuking" ElToro speculated on page one. The conversation has been a good one, and it would be a shame if it was terminated.

There's a renewed question for Infidel here, as our atheist anti-abortion man: Is spirituality required for a teetotal anti-abortion stance? Are you a teetotaler?

I think the teetotal attitude makes a pro-abort 100% non-receptive. In my discussions with my relative, I avoid the notion. If the opposition starts to steer you that way, it's best to avoid it, if you can. It's not dishonest to say "that is not what contemporary conservatives want for America". Though teetotal is the endgame, it's not a viable strategy to pursue off the bat. The conservative machine is flexing it's muscle in a way that it feels we can attain a measure of progress. In the environment fostered by that progress, more work can be done on the fundamental changes of heart required for further progress.

I cannot think of a reason for abortion that is not selfish

IME, discussing anything with such a person is like arguing with Admiral Spruance.

Jon Parshall says arguing with Spruance was like arguing with a refrigerator. You won't win.

There are some topics that you should never argue . It usually ends with both parties angry and still clinging to their position .

quote:

I think the teetotal attitude makes a pro-abort 100% non-receptive. In my discussions with my relative, I avoid the notion.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "teetotal attitude"... so I looked it up:

tee·to·tal
/ˈtēˌtōdl/
adjective: teetotal; adjective: tee-total
choosing or characterized by abstinence from alcohol. "a teetotal lifestyle"

I'm not sure what that has to do with abortion other than it's a well known fact that too much alcohol can lead to unwanted pregnancy.

I apologize. I am guilty of using the word as a synonym for a 100% absolute position of any sort.

In the abortion discussion it would mean an anti-abortion attitude that makes zero exceptions.

In the contemporary discussion, many are willing to soften their position, at least in a debate context with an adversary, in order to achieve more credibility in the eyes of the opponent, and increase chances of some of their logic getting through.

Though they may be an absolutist, they will choose not to wear that on their sleeve, for the sake of incremental progress.

Maybe the word absolutist is better.

Below is a link to a discussion between the two sides. It is a banner example of why I say the discussion is not worth more than short declarations of truth punctuated by a grand exit.
Allie Beth Stucky

I have two stickers to read on the back of my truck. One says, Trump Approved and the other says, Choose Life. If you’re driving around East Tennessee, you might see me. My hair will likely not be combed.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
In the abortion discussion it would mean an anti-abortion attitude that makes zero exceptions.

Sign me up, and I happily wear it on my sleeve.

There is no middle ground when discussing the murder of babies; the most innocent among us and the most in need of our protection. No middle ground whatsoever. No euphemisms like "women's health", "pro-choice", "pro-abortion", "reproductive rights", and on...and on...and on. Nope. Call it what it is - Murdering babies. Wholesale slaughter in the most grotesque manner possible.

Watch one, or look at the result of one - the "products of conception" (another leftist euphemism for a murdered baby), and if you don't have a change of heart, you have no soul.

I don't care if the child was conceived through rape or incest. It is still an innocent child deserving of life. It sucks to be in that position and my heart goes out to you, but it is what it is.

"Life of the mother"? This is a joke and is meant solely to tug at the heart strings of liberals. There is no medical condition that requires an abortion to save the life of the mother. It simply doesn't exist...but it sounds good.

Nope, no middle ground whatsoever. You are either on the side of life or you are in favor of slaughtering babies. What we have done in this country over the past 50 years makes the Holocaust look like a picnic. 75+ million abortions.

It sickens me.

If you don't want to have a baby, keep your fucking knees together. It really is as simple as that.

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
I cannot think of a reason for abortion that is not selfish

It stems from a lack of self responsibility.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
There's a renewed question for Infidel here, as our atheist anti-abortion man:

How dare you assume my gender!

quote:

Is spirituality required for a teetotal anti-abortion stance?

Couldn't say.

quote:

Are you a teetotaler?

An absolutist, no. Two reasons. One, I would be willing to tolerate a rape exception. The reason is because pregnancy and especially childbirth are dangerous. While a woman who has sex willingly is willingly taking on that risk, a woman who is raped doesn't.

quote:

I think the teetotal attitude makes a pro-abort 100% non-receptive.

And this would be the other reason. Better to meet partway, by supporting a rape exception, and thus potentially prevent 98% of abortions, than to dig in our heels and have them refuse to give way.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
... but reality says sometimes it really is the best bad option.

Murdering a baby is never...ever...the best option. It is never any option.

FenderBender is probably just worried the baby might grow up to be a fed. (ahem)

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

"Life of the mother"? This is a joke and is meant solely to tug at the heart strings of liberals. There is no medical condition that requires an abortion to save the life of the mother. It simply doesn't exist...but it sounds good.

Ectopic pregnancy, without a doubt. TMK, guaranteed to be fatal to mother and baby.

Probably, very young rape victims - lots of girls go through menarche long before they are strong enough to safely bear children.

The ectopic pregnancy is an interesting circumstance. It seems, based on my so-far limited research, that it is indeed 100% impossible that it becomes successful. There's no transplanting it, and it will not work itself out. It can resolve itself insofar as the body can "pass" the failed embryo on its own, but it won't successfully move itself to the uterus and grow properly.

To put myself in these shoes: if my wife had an ectopic pregnancy, I am almost certain we'd opt to monitor it, and surgically resolve it if it didn't pass through on its own. I'll ask her about it.

One can certainly be of the mind that it's "their time to go". If God gave them a naturally perilous situation, and you are inclined to not interfere with modern medicine, then you'd opt to accept the likelihood that you'll die if the embryo doesn't pass through on its own.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

"Life of the mother"? This is a joke and is meant solely to tug at the heart strings of liberals. There is no medical condition that requires an abortion to save the life of the mother. It simply doesn't exist...but it sounds good.

Ectopic pregnancy, without a doubt.

Nope.

Based on my (still limited) research, 1% of pregnancies are ectopic. 10% of those result in a condition that threatens the life of the mother. Like most pro-abortion talking points, it represents an extreme minority of cases.

What makes ectopic cases unique is the apparent fact that there is zero precedent for an ectopic circumstance resulting in viability. As in it is impossible (according to our recorded medical history) that an ectopic pregnancy result in a live birth of any sort.

Research ongoing, of course. It's interesting how difficult it is to research abortion-related topics. These answers are not offered up on a plate via the search engine, as so many things are.

quote:

And why do many women insist on therapy and psychological care after a mere removal of a "clump of cells"? Because they deep down KNOW that the clump of cells is an actual human

I did a bit of research on this. Stats are apparently sparse, and what is there doesn't seem to show a healthy portion of abortive parents seeking therapy post-abortion. If anyone can point us toward stats that illustrate a significant pursuit of therapy after abortion, it'd be a useful talking point.