Interesting video from Gunfighters Inc. on training for bear defense. Validated a lot of thoughts I already had. there's always the question 10mm or .44 Mag...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiMjpa-Nsc4

I watched that video, pretty good one.

Here is another video that is pretty good, an interview with Phil Shoemaker, an Alaska guide with 45 years of experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UANI6U-SL4o

Interesting indeed.

My question is more anatomical. I have virtually zero experience with bears, but I've shot a lot of deer with handguns. Torso shots, even good heart/lung shots, are going to take a bit to put a deer down. Bears are tremendously strong critters, so I can't imagine they're much different...and making a charging bear expire 5 minutes after the fight isn't going to do you a whole lot of good right now.

A head shot (if you hit the brain) will drop a deer right here, right now. But I have the advantage that most of those aren't moving very much (typically highway injured), I can take my time, and the deer isn't going to maul me if I'm too slow or miss. None of those are the case with a charging bear.

At the distances that they're demonstrating with this test (which I think are pretty realistic for what you might have to deal with in real life), you're going to have to stop that bear immediately or you're going to get chewed up. IMO that's going to require either convincing it to leave (psychological stop) or putting one in the brain (physiological stop).

A lot has been said about the density of bear skulls, and I admittedly have no experience with them, but for those who do, are they really as "bulletproof" as some claim them to be? What does it take to penetrate one and get a bullet into the brain pan? I'd hypothesize that you're going to want some kind of hard, heavy projectile with a wide, flat meplat so that it cuts and penetrates instead of deflecting off the skull like a round-nose bullet might tend to do. Given that criteria, does 10mm have enough oomph to get the job done, or is it going to take more?

It would seem to me that once that penetrative threshold is met, you'd be best served by the gun that gives you the ability to put the most of those capable rounds on target as quickly as possible to improve your chances of hitting the brain.

ETA:

quote:

Originally posted by Orive 8:
I watched that video, pretty good one.

Here is another video that is pretty good, an interview with Phil Shoemaker, an Alaska guide with 45 years of experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UANI6U-SL4o

That was indeed an interesting podcast, thanks for sharing. It pretty much illustrates my point, though...he got multiple deep-penetrating shots into the heart and lungs with that 9mm, and the bear still had time to walk off and die. If it had been really intent on finishing those people first, it could have.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 92fstech,

If you want to go down the rabbit hole, check out my buddy's YouTube channel, Chuke's Outdoor Adventures. He's done a lot of what I call redneck ballistics testing with bear skulls both real and simulated. His friend Chuck has a channel, Alaskan Ballistics and they've filmed some episodes together as well.

10mm hardcast with a flat nose tends to get the job done. They've had some wonky results with the Underwood Extreme Penetrator loads that use the Lehigh bullet. They penetrate but tend to veer off rather than traveling in a straight line.

They alluded to it in the video I posted, while a bear's head may look huge, there's a lot of fur, fat and muscle, the actual skull is a small part of it. So yes, a CNS shot will put a bear down, 10mm will penetrate, but your are shooting at a relatively small target under stress.

I’ve seen as many bear attack and defense videos and articles as I can. My primary relocation spot back to free America is grizzly territory. The close range charging target reinforced my opinion that a pistol lanyard is important. If a bear knocks you down, I would like my pistol tethered to me. At least improving your odds.

I guess I've been somewhat delusional with a false sense of security that a bear attack can be stopped before harm is done.

Not probable that a critical hit can be made with a questionable load on a small moving target (skull) of a charging bear while under duress before harm is done (ie - I'm dead).

Need some load that carries an instant acting toxin....

quote:

while a bear's head may look huge, there's a lot of fur, fat and muscle, the actual skull is a small part of it.

Absolutely...and honestly I'm not sure how effective a lot of those hits they made in the video would have been at achieving an immediate stop.

I've definitely put good headshots on animals in the past and still needed a follow-up because I missed the brain. A racoon's brain is a very small portion of an already very small target, and I imagine the proportions are similar with a bear...but with a bear you have the added complication of having to penetrate more mass and density to get to it, and it'll kill you if you don't.

quote:

Originally posted by 2000Z-71:
Interesting video from Gunfighters Inc. on training for bear defense. Validated a lot of thoughts I already had. there's always the question 10mm or .44 Mag...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiMjpa-Nsc4

I've previously watched that, and the master guide 9mm one posted later in this thread also. The tracked bear target was moving at about half speed to a real charge. I like that he spoke about marine flares. Noise makers and flares are actually quite effective, but know when it's time to move to the gun.

One thing to note, in speaking with wildlife troopers who've responded to these attacks, people tend to spray too early and spray is so ineffective and debilitating to the people that none of them use it in Alaska on real bears. Real bear protection looks like a 12 gauge or 45/70.

Like most gun fights, a handgun is to get to your long gun. I built some 1250fps solid copper 9mm rounds for my wife because she doesn't effective get shots out of a 44. Her 9mm on her hip is to get to the 12 gauge which by family and corporate rules is no more than 20 feet away. The same goes for my 44 on my chest.

I've shot an Alaskan black bear. 300 win mag, hard-core rounds....bear took several in the lungs and heart area, a 44 to the skull. They're tough mfers. I carry bear spray for tourists and democrats, not bears.

quote:

people tend to spray too early and spray is so ineffective and debilitating to the people that none of them use it in Alaska on real bears. ...

I carry bear spray for tourists and democrats, not bears.

When we were at Ketchemak Bay two weeks ago, the Water Taxi captain said one of their other guys had to go pick up a guy ahead of schedule that day because he'd sprayed himself with bear spray. I don't believe he was defending himself at the time...just pulled a stupid and contaminated himself. I'm honestly not sure why he ended his trip over it...yeah, it's gonna suck, but it's gonna suck just as bad back in Homer as it is across the bay. Rinse it off and find a nice windy spot to let it dissipate. It's just a condiment in aerosol form, it ain't gonna kill ya.

There is a big difference between killing a bear and stopping a bear attack. While killing the bear will certainly stop thee attack, a half dozen hits with anything that causes pain and or shock will hopefully end the attack.
The statistics are pretty good in bear defensive shootings when the bear is actually hit by a bullet. I'll wager not many of the bears died, at least not within sight of the encounter.
That being said, I have a DW Razorback 1911 10mm, because I shoot it better than a .44 Magnum. I have also played the make a cast, move the .375, make a cast game. In the willows, even a .375 isn't all that comforting...

OZ

quote:

Originally posted by Oscar Zulu:
There is a big difference between killing a bear and stopping a bear attack.

Seems reasonable but I have neither experience nor expertise in the matter. I will assert that, in my case, the probability of the former is probably very low. So, if a bear does charge me, I can only hope for the latter. Would be interest in solid data of what it would take so I don't really have to hope.

Going back a few years I attended a 'stay live' lecture given by a group of rangers in BC who had real-life experience of being the wrong end of grumpy/charging bears.

There were a couple of short [necessarily] movies, taken by people who just happened to be around with a movie camera at the time.

Now bear in mind that this is West coast environment, so the bears they were discussing were mostly grizzlies.

The number one movie showed a ranger being chased by a pissed-off youngster griz. The only thing that saved the human was that the horse he was riding was even more scared than he was, and jumped a ten-foot wide deep firebreak without touching it. However, the bear DID actually hit the far side, but stopped right there, obviously temporarily winded. The second movie showed that the myth that bears can't run downhill was just that - a myth. The third was the most interesting, as it showed the sheer power in those bear arms - a polar bear, somewhere up in Nunavut, taking a seal out of the water with a 'casual' downward swipe as it leaned out over the edge of an ice-floe. The seal must have sailed about fifty feet in the air before hitting the ice in a floppy splat.

I train everyday for bear attacks


By not going in the woods where they live!!!!

Clearly any handgun is a very low probability solution for a motivated bear attack.

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:
Real bear protection looks like a 12 gauge or 45/70.

Like most gun fights, a handgun is to get to your long gun. I built some 1250fps solid copper 9mm rounds for my wife because she doesn't effective get shots out of a 44. Her 9mm on her hip is to get to the 12 gauge which by family and corporate rules is no more than 20 feet away.

I spent a bunch of time in my younger days climbing in Alaska, we interacted with several NPS rangers and the conversation went to bear defense, their ammunition for bear was 12g Brenneke magnum slugs. Is this still standard or, something newer?

I've been training for a swarm of ferrets.

You never know

Why train? Just go camping with someone slower than you are.

I have thought that since the movie Revenant came out that the Griz attack scene was probably fairly similar how one might play out.

Many have survived attacks. I would say most did without firing a shot.

I am not advocating not defending ones self. But as many have said. A bear can take a firearm round or multiple and continue the attack.

The chances of you being on flat, stable ground with good footing and getting off three good, consecutive shots on target are very slim.

A neck shot with a large projectile would be my choice if available. If not there will only be seconds so good luck.

The best training for a bear attack is running.

The key is getting faster than your companions.