Was re-watching Blackhawk Down the other day. Had a thought about all those roadblocks they encountered and how the convoy just spent so much time getting turned around trying to find a path of least resistance. Was wondering at what point does a convoy decide that they're just getting steered into a bad ambush by turning around at every roadblock.

At what point does a convey consider a roadblock to be aggressor action and try to break through themselves?

Maybe not specific to the movie, but if a convoy encounters a roadblock, what's the usual course of action? Contingency routes? Head back and let another element clear the roadblock?

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Was re-watching Blackhawk Down the other day.

That sure seemed like a cluster fuck, you'd think Air cover would have blown the shit out of any blockages on the route prior to the ground forces moving in, there was of course the threat from RPG that the skinnies were shooting at the Blackhawks.

One thing for certain, if your buddy is running an FN Minimi, be sure to pack ear plugs...

Ask Cpt. Chad Fleming.

I am only guessing based on the idiot rules of engagement that our forces have had to put up with for 60 some years, but I assumed that ROE limited what could be done in Mogadishu as well. They may not have been able to call in an air strike to flatten the site and the four square city blocks around it as would have been the appropriate response to a roadblock.

That was a cluster for sure. They requested and were denied ac-130 gunship support by the Clinton administration because they were worried about the political blowback. Can’t answer your question, but engagement in light humvees with presumed RPGs everywhere would have been tough.

My military combat training was limited, but I believe the drill when ambushed was counter assault into the ambushers.
Hard to say if a roadblock would constitute a similar response, especially in a built up urban area.

The Sec. of State for Bill Clinton denied a DOD request for at least one tank to be stationed in Mogadishu. The Blackhawk team members knew that once the Somalis realized how vulnerable the choppers were, that the teams were in trouble.

Just like Libya and Hillary, a reasonble request for more protection was refused. The Clinton's were not concerned, it was only soldier's lives.

When I've done route clearance for a convoy, the route has been under surveillance for an extended period prior, had typically has aerial surveillance and support working over and ahead on a continual basis, often giving live feed to the personnel on the ground.

Opposition may be acutely aware of air support, or the aerial surveillance may be covert and unseen. It's there.

Speed is life, and the best way to enable speed is to know what's ahead. The best way to avoid aa "road block" is to know in advance that it's there, and either avoid it, or be prepared to go through it. Either way, intelligence is key.

A timely question.

I just picked up a new book: All secure : a special operations soldier's fight to survive on the battlefield and the homefront
by Satterly, Tom

I "think" he was there, but I've just started the book.
.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
My military combat training was limited, but I believe the drill when ambushed was counter assault into the ambushers.

Near ambush (hand grenade range) - rush the ambushers

Far ambush - pop smoke, element out of kill zone lays down suppressive fire while the guys in the KZ get out

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Was re-watching Blackhawk Down the other day. Had a thought about all those roadblocks they encountered and how the convoy just spent so much time getting turned around trying to find a path of least resistance. Was wondering at what point does a convoy decide that they're just getting steered into a bad ambush by turning around at every roadblock.

At what point does a convey consider a roadblock to be aggressor action and try to break through themselves?

Maybe not specific to the movie, but if a convoy encounters a roadblock, what's the usual course of action? Contingency routes? Head back and let another element clear the roadblock?

How about a BLM crowd trying to block one.

quote:

Originally posted by kramden:

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Was re-watching Blackhawk Down the other day. Had a thought about all those roadblocks they encountered and how the convoy just spent so much time getting turned around trying to find a path of least resistance. Was wondering at what point does a convoy decide that they're just getting steered into a bad ambush by turning around at every roadblock.

At what point does a convey consider a roadblock to be aggressor action and try to break through themselves?

Maybe not specific to the movie, but if a convoy encounters a roadblock, what's the usual course of action? Contingency routes? Head back and let another element clear the roadblock?

How about a BLM crowd trying to block one.

Come on.

My wife's good friend with whom she co-taught elementary school had a very good friend who's dad was General Wayne Downing (RIP), 4-star general, head of special operations in the early 1990s. He's referred to in the book, but not much as he was thousands of miles away. I met him at his daughter's house party as all of our young kids were about the same age. By then he was retired and with DHS and had an armed security detail and black SUVs go everywhere with him, post-911, likely 2002 or so.

I was at the food line and heard he was in the military. I chatted him up and he asked if I had served. I said something like "well, I was a 1LT in the Army National Guard, what rank were you?" "General" he says. I actually asked, "how many stars?", and he said GENERAL. Okay. I moved along... He had some serious gravitas, you know, like he and everybody knew he was a big deal. I did not make the connection WHO he was regarding Blackhawk Down until a few years later. General Garrsion reported to him.

A friend did loads of convoy security in Iraq / Afghanistan, for visiting Senators / Dignitaries / etc.

In addition to lots of recon, he often described it as "going ahead of the convoy and picking fights".

Miles ahead... more than one team/vehicle, actively starting shit with anyone who seems dangerous, and rerouting the convoy as needed or possible.

Not exactly roadblock centric, but close.

Army FM 7-8 or 17-98 probably would have your answers.

If you turn a corner and are faced with an ambush with a well trained team with claymores and anti armor capabilities youre fucked.

But dependent on your unit make up you drive though the ambush if the road is blocked you would attack right and left.

Never stop movement = harder target = less blood

As for Gothic Serpent : General Garrsion would later state he might not have used the tanks in launching his raid. He acknowledged, however, that the effort to rescue the Rangers after the raid went awry would have been less dangerous and more speedy had the armor been available. Garrison did request AC-130 support in advance of the Op. General Hoar, the head of the Central Command, recommended against sending the gunships. General Hoar believed that the Army helicopters in Somalia provided adequate firepower and that the dispatch of the gunships would enlarge the American military presence in the region at a time when Washington was looking to transfer the mission entirely to the United Nations, officials said. Frank G. Wisner, the Undersecretary of Defense for Policy, also recommended against sending the gunships. Gen Garrison was a man of deep intellect & personal integrity. My he Rest easy..

I’m not trying to second guess something about which I know nothing, but since the end of the Cold War, unless the ChiComs are involved, does it make sense to worry about “escalating our involvement.”

It seems like either the world perceives the US as involved, or not involved.

the answer is : it depends

prior to the convoy a mission briefing would be issued to all drivers / leaders in the convoy detailing route, alt. routes, enroute rally points / phase lines, possible threats, reaction to contact SOP, break contact plan, disabled vehicle plan, casualty plan, communication plan, etc...

it would all be in the Operations Order -- Situation / Mission / Execution / Logistics / Communications... some of this would be 'as per unit SOP' but some would be mission specific

based on the threats / enemy activity in the area the plan would be tailored to the prevailing enemy capability. typically a rehearsal / rock drill would be performed with key leaders if time permits.

a convoy is a military op like any other -- you need to plan it out and ensure everyone is on the smae page

if you're in a crappy unit with poor leadership -- God help you if you get ambushed. if you have a good plan and decent leadership -- you should be okay

obviously the enemy gets a vote - and Murphy too

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quote:

Originally posted by Batty67:
General Wayne Downing (RIP), 4-star general, head of special operations in the early 1990s.

I was at the food line and heard he was in the military. He had some serious gravitas, you know, like he and everybody knew he was a big deal.

Sorry for the thread de-rail, but this made me laugh. I served with WAD (RIP Warrior), he was our Bn Commander at the time and we had a nickname for him, CMO WAD. CMO stood for "Check Me Out."

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
A friend did loads of convoy security in Iraq / Afghanistan, for visiting Senators / Dignitaries / etc.

In addition to lots of recon, he often described it as "going ahead of the convoy and picking fights".

Miles ahead... more than one team/vehicle, actively starting shit with anyone who seems dangerous, and rerouting the convoy as needed or possible.

Not exactly roadblock centric, but close.

I have friends who did the above in Iraq and the ROE all depended on what kind of convoy you were in. Up until 2013 we owned the road, and convoy operations often included recon by fire. I know one gunner who was on a three star's security detail and they lit up so much stuff they had to resupply their ammo every time the pulled into a FOB. Other convoys had to box it out when they encountered IED's or other obstacles. So yea, it's complicated to say the least.