quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:
Seems more like sanctioned hazing than training.

That has long been my opinion. I’m familiar with the canned rationales that are always trotted out to justify the practice, and not one has ever seemed valid enough to justify it. And I have heard of injuries. Sometimes it’s, “Oh, so and so didn’t do it right,” but never anything more. When an incompetent trainer shoots a cadet through negligence, someone gets fired if not criminally charged, but someone can’t see well for a week? “Yeah, it’s funny to see those people with snot running down their face, and the shower stories are hilarious.”

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Your agency/academy doesn't do that? It's simply "hose down the cadets so we can watch them squirm"?

I cannot speak about local academies specifically, but yes, that’s the practice I’ve often heard of in some academies and other venues. The last time I was exposed to irritating gas (despite being well aware of its effects from previous exposures), it was nothing more than, “Okay, take off your masks, wait a bit, and come on out.” We got nothing out of the experience other than, “Yeah, that sucks.”

TASER effects are obviously different than OC’s, but when my agency first got them, being hit was mandatory to become certified to use them: “They are absolutely safe, and there’s nothing to fear.” Later, of course, it became optional, and “Be careful now; make sure the probes hit the right spots.”

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
I cannot speak about local academies specifically, but yes, that’s the practice I’ve often heard of in some academies and other venues.

So this is all hearsay, not actual first-hand knowledge or experience with your local agencies' or academies' OC training practices?

It might be enlightening to check it out yourself, or at least talk directly to some of the instructors, so see if it's really just "spray and haze the rookies" or if there are legitimate training goals, additional tasks, and other parts to the OC training of which you're not aware.

I'm not saying your local guys don't just hose the rookies for shits and giggles, like you're claiming. There may be places like that out there. But not all (or even most, I suspect). At the academies where I teach, and the others I'm familiar with, the OC training is much more purposeful and involved.

I have been exposed to OC, but never deliberately sprayed with it because it is not necessary for the purposes I would ever use it for. As for others’ experiences, though, my knowledge is based on personal observation and first hand reports, not vague rumor.

In any event, if some training programs require meaningful activity after exposure, that’s great, but not if someone is permanently injured because “Someone didn’t do it right.”

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
but not if someone is permanently injured because “Someone didn’t do it right.”

On that we agree. Any training that results in injury needs to be looked at closely, to see if there's a better/safer way to do it. Or if it's instructor error, if that instructor needs retraining/reassignment.

Many of us HAVE checked it out with our training officers, policies, practices and procedures. Sometimes it's the manufacturer's recommendation that officers be exposed, but not always. The rationale of "you have to experience it" is bullshit. No experience can prepare you for OC, the the second time is every bit as bad as the first. IMHO, it's a revenant of "whose dick is bigger" training, which has largely gone away over the last few decades. And I was with an agency that sprayed me in the chest with pepper balls from an automatic paint ball gun, the strong stuff issued to the feds.

Well having been on both sides of the can I'll say why we do it. For us, you get sprayed and then have to fight and shoot. Not live ammo but airsoft with hits on a target. There is a definite training goal and its not just line up and eat it. You can easily wind up getting OC'd at a scene and the first time shouldnt be when its happening with a real threat.

It sucks, no one likes it, Ive got it 3 times. I've long heard that people of lighter skin tones are effected far more than darker complexions. My experience seems to agree with this. Some have lasting effects for a few days, red eyes irratation etc. Its pretty normal. Some people reaggrivate it with improper cleaning procedures.

As to why OC and taser and not gunshots and car bumpers? Lets not be crazy. Lethal force on a cadet/recruit/boot is a terrible idea. Also you are far more likely to be erroneously tased or OC'd. Lastly if it doesnt go right you are not likely to be seriously hurt.

I cant speak for all departments, is someplace out there just doing it for giggles? Maybe. With that said there is a legitimate purpose for it.

This is retarded. How did we get to this point of exposing trainees to OC,CS, and tasers. I think tear gas is the greatest thing for crowd/riot control. I’ve been exposed to it many times for “training” but I’m not sure why. It sucks. I get it but I didn’t do anything wrong.

Let’s suppose for a moment guns never existed and we just invented them. Would we have to shoot cops, correction officers, and military so they know what it’s like to get shot?

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:


TASER effects are obviously different than OC’s, but when my agency first got them, being hit was mandatory to become certified to use them: “They are absolutely safe, and there’s nothing to fear.” ”

In my Opinion the whole bag is about teaching the "Public" it's not going to kill you. And it looks good in court to show that the cops all survived. So of course it's safe to use. Mainly started with the Tazer but in our ever so gentle pampering of criminals it spread.

We were always told there were no lasting effects.

Our agency first used CAP-STUN, which was the best. We got blasts to the face during training during the early years. After a while, we just had to remain in a stadium's bathroom for a while where it was sprayed into a corner. It waa still nasty even then.

We then went to a water based stream product, which we never thought was even close to being as effective. By this time, they would only spray it in a styrofoam cup, dip a Q-tip in it and then wipe it under our eyes. It burned as you would think, but it wasn't anything like the blasts to the face with CAP-STUN.

I also did a week at a military base for a chemical weapon instructors course. There, we were sprayed with CS, CN, OC and probably other things I can't remember. It never got easy, and I never gained any resistance to them. I thought I was going to die on some occasions because I couldn't breathe.

Also, I was tased in the back from about 6' away. I had back nipples for a while afterward due to the fishhook dart probes. I NEVER EVER want to go through that again.

In reading this thread, I quickly surmise (accurately) that most don’t have to fight much while being the police.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
There are legitimate reasons to make certain training courses difficult and parts even unpleasant. Legitimate reasons are to ensure that candidates have enough desire and motivation to not only complete the training but to do the job after the training, and another is to build group solidarity. There are, however, countless ways to accomplish those goals without endangering trainees’ health. I’m reminded of reading that many Russian Spetsnaz troops lack front teeth because they were knocked out in training; just how does that benefit anyone?

And if it’s to test or condition people to perform after exposure, then why isn’t that what’s required? Take a spritz, then run 100 yards and handcuff a resisting arrestee or complete the handgun qualification course; fail either and out you go. But let’s see the fans of the process do it first.

The rusky’s now wear body armor and shoot each other with live ammo, I still fail to see the point

Maybe we fight a lot but are judicious in our use of pepper spray. In the prison system, though, we mostly talked. None of them fellas were confrontational, you know. We discussed our feelings, went to groups, and sung Kumbaya.

Bump

quote:

Additionally the company representatives (daughter unknowingly was used as a guinea pig) left the cleaner in her eyes for 15 minutes. Another, well known company also makes a cleaner but make no mention of its use on eyes and recommends washing it off after 30 seconds.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

quote:

To be sure we are looking into possible legal action.

Good.

Please keep us updated.

I've been purposely and incidentally exposed to OC. I was appreciative of the purposeful exposure so I knew what to expect when it occurred during a fight. It happened more than once but I had an unusually active assignment for a while. And, perhaps foolishly, I volunteered for taser not once, but twice. Because after the first time I was confident I could fight through it. I was mistaken on that assumption. It is nice to be able to give first hand court testimony as to the effects of these tools. Particularly if there is an accusation of excessive force associated with the deployment.

Sorry to hear about this.

There seems to be very little info online for NCS Fast cleaner. I'm only finding what little is on the manufacturer's website. Seems like you should be able to get a hold of an MSDS sheet, no? I'm no legal expert, but the PD may be required to keep one on hand.

I was sprayed 15 years ago at the academy and tased 14 years ago at my first agency. Both sucked, the former messed my eyes up for over a week.

I think we can skip the ritualistic "back in my day" crap and just train recruits that OC and the Taser can be used by suspects to incapacitate them and using deadly force against those types of attacks is just dandy.

While its nice...looking way way back... to know exactly how I react to OC and the Taser, I wouldn't feel less educated on the subject by just watching a training video.

Ive been sprayed twice...once locally and once at the state academy. The local one was followed by a full-on obstacle course where we had to deliver strikes on dummies, differentiate between officers and suspects, cuff a suspect, and fight a guy in a red man suit. It sucked, but I came out of it knowing I could fight through it.

At the state academy they sprayed us and then we punched a bag for ten seconds. That was more pointless imo from a training perspective, but I can see how it might have been valuable to the guys that hadn't experienced it before. I just felt that our local training was a lot more practical (although it was a lot more painful!).

I had no long-term negative effects from either exposure. Both times the instructors made sure to stand far enough back to prevent hydraulic needling. Also, both times we were given only water to decon with, and were told to avoid using anything else once we went home.

I found that the eyes do a good job of flushing themselves...the water is pretty much just to wash the crap off your face so you don't keep getting recontaminated. If you strobe your eyes like they tell you (and it's easier said than done because they naturally want to slam shut and stay that way), they will flush themselves in short order. It still burns like hell, but it'll wear off eventually. The only times I ever saw people have lasting issues was when they would rub their eyes with their hands or a towel...if the cornea gets scratched at all and that stuff gets in there, it's a bad day.

quote:

Originally posted by rusbro:
Sorry to hear about this.

There seems to be very little info online for NCS Fast cleaner. I'm only finding what little is on the manufacturer's website. Seems like you should be able to get a hold of an MSDS sheet, no? I'm no legal expert, but the PD may be required to keep one on hand.

We will check. It appears that the cleaner is intended to be used with that companies o/c gel.

Silent