quote:

Originally posted by sjtill:
In that scenario I think I would not cock the hammer. I practice normally with a DA first shot; with my GGI trigger on my 226 it's not as heavy, very smooth. With the anxiety of the situation, I would think it safer (avoiding an unwanted discharge) to use DA.

This. You should have been used to DA/SA sequence in practice. And investing in a smooth trigger should take away any doubts on doing DA.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
Sounds like more practice is needed when coming out of the holster.

The 226 like the rest of the legacy or, classic Sigs, is designed to be holstered with the hammer de-cocked. Not all the way down but, de-cocked. Start introducing little exceptions into your manual of arms and threat scenarios, you're more likely to screw up when the adrenaline starts pumping.
Just practice and practice often.

Well said

Learn to use the system as designed. If you physically and mentally can't do that, try a different system. Or work harder.

I train basic cadets on the P226 and go round and round with other instructors on this. One key issue is that "thumb cocking" the pistol compromises a good grip, which either impacts the round fired or takes time to re-acquire. In addition, I've seen trainees attempt to thumb-cock and slip off the hammer, which puts them farther behind the curve.

It's one of those shortcuts, like decocking with the non-dominant thumb, that just creates training scars.

When I go to the range with a P-series SIG, I spend a bit of time firing two-round sequences: draw from holster, first shot DA, second shot SA, de-cock, re-holster, rinse, repeat.

quote:

Originally posted by kidcop:
Learn to use the system as designed. If you physically and mentally can't do that, try a different system. Or work harder.

I train basic cadets on the P226 and go round and round with other instructors on this. One key issue is that "thumb cocking" the pistol compromises a good grip, which either impacts the round fired or takes time to re-acquire. In addition, I've seen trainees attempt to thumb-cock and slip off the hammer, which puts them farther behind the curve.

It's one of those shortcuts, like decocking with the non-dominant thumb, that just creates training scars.

I’m really talking about a specific scenario as a non-leo and totally understand the needed policies or training in a dept or org. My opinion is that for the vast majority of shooters, the probability of scoring a good hit is substantially higher using a single action pull.

The Allen, TX shooting happened 20 mins away and got me thinking about what an actual situation might look like. You hear shots, people screaming. Turn and see a guy 40 yards away walking with a rifle and plate carrier. You 100% understand the situation and know he is the shooter. He shot at people away from your direction and his back is turned to you, you know you have time. Your hearts pounding and you have to make a great shot (above armor/head). I was thinking I’d way rather be pulling a short 4lb trigger instead of stroking through a long 10lb+ trigger. I might be wrong but I think it’d be a very challenging shot for even a good shooter in DA.

Did you throw your second shot into the dirt?!!!

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
When I go to the range with a P-series SIG, I spend a bit of time firing two-round sequences: draw from holster, first shot DA, second shot SA, de-cock, re-holster, rinse, repeat.

I would shoot the first shot double action,

Unless you practice it a lot
You will loose some control of the gun in a very stressful situation trying to cock then inserting your finger into the trigger guard and then attempting to squeeze one off.

Take the first double action shot and your finger will be in position for everything to follow.

Learn to shoot the DA shot. What happens if under stress your thumb slips off the hammer and the gun discharges or any other screw up? Especially if it leads to the wrong person being shot?

Fact is, once you learn the DA shot, you are much faster and more accurate than what you’d imagine. With me, there’s no difference between the first shot with a P226 or a Glock. Both are right around a second from the holster. You have to learn the first shot on all handguns if you want to shoot proactively.

If you’re not willing to commit the training time, get a Glock, M&P or 320. All good options. No harm, no foul.

quote:

Originally posted by EmpireState:

quote:

Originally posted by kidcop:
Learn to use the system as designed. If you physically and mentally can't do that, try a different system. Or work harder.

I train basic cadets on the P226 and go round and round with other instructors on this. One key issue is that "thumb cocking" the pistol compromises a good grip, which either impacts the round fired or takes time to re-acquire. In addition, I've seen trainees attempt to thumb-cock and slip off the hammer, which puts them farther behind the curve.

It's one of those shortcuts, like decocking with the non-dominant thumb, that just creates training scars.

I’m really talking about a specific scenario as a non-leo and totally understand the needed policies or training in a dept or org. My opinion is that for the vast majority of shooters, the probability of scoring a good hit is substantially higher using a single action pull.

The Allen, TX shooting happened 20 mins away and got me thinking about what an actual situation might look like. You hear shots, people screaming. Turn and see a guy 40 yards away walking with a rifle and plate carrier. You 100% understand the situation and know he is the shooter. He shot at people away from your direction and his back is turned to you, you know you have time. Your hearts pounding and you have to make a great shot (above armor/head). I was thinking I’d way rather be pulling a short 4lb trigger instead of stroking through a long 10lb+ trigger. I might be wrong but I think it’d be a very challenging shot for even a good shooter in DA.

Attempting to thumb-cock the hammer on a double-action pistol during a high-stress situation, you're simply inviting problems, not to mention circumventing how it operates. Doesn't mean it won't work however, this gets at the heart of understanding how to use your pistol, how it functions and building solid shooting fundamentals. This has nothing to do with department policies or, liability issues, these are shooting basics. If you don't have a high-level of confidence in your first shot using this platform, you need to practice more or, change pistol type. It's ok to discuss various scenarios but, at the end of the day, it comes down to your fundamentals, can you operate this piece of machinery effectively in times of high-stress? Stance, grip, sight-alignment, picture, trigger control, breathing and follow-through.

If the threat is 40yds away, you're aiming center mass with a pistol, you're not taking a head shot. You continue shooting while advancing if possible, cranial shot if the threat refuses to cease. Your adrenaline will be pumping and your breathing will be so irregular, you'd better hope your shooting fundamentals are hardwired through solid training and plenty of practice.

With the scenario mentioned, no I would not cock the hammer. I find it almost easier to be accurate in DA. With SA, I have to be careful not to get in a hurry and disturb the sights.

I am confident to 25 and beyond (thanks Jones!). However, if the target is beyond a distance where I am comfortable, I won’t be shooting at that distance. Move to cover and wait for him to get close enough that I am comfortable or move to cover and try to steathily close the distance before taking a shot. In either case, the first shot will be DA.

I’ve shot a steel A zone plate at 183 yards with a G26. Hits were 7 out of 9.
No DA to SA choice with that gun but I grew up learning to shoot DA with revolvers before I ever carried the 1911 then carried a P226.

In this scenario the 1st shot is going to be DA.
Putzting around with cocking the hammer could lead to more danger to me or anyone else with that amount of adrenaline. JMHO

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:
I’ve shot a steel A zone plate at 183 yards with a G26. Hits were 7 out of 9.
No DA to SA choice with that gun but I grew up learning to shoot DA with revolvers before I ever carried the 1911 then carried a P226.

In this scenario the 1st shot is going to be DA.
Putzting around with cocking the hammer could lead to more danger to me or anyone else with that amount of adrenaline. JMHO

7/9 on an A-zone at 183 yards with a G26 is incredible marksmanship in my opinion. I can’t do that.

You guys kill me sometimes. This is a very specific scenario question and you guys ignore that and go with the standard “better to spend your money on ammo and practice” mantra. Not bad advice but totally ignoring the actual question.

Shooter A has trained and is as capable as he will be at the moment of this exercise. I struggle to understand you guys saying your DA shot is as accurate as an SA shot. That’s bullshit. If somebody bet every dollar I owned in a long range pistol shot, one shot that had to hit, of course I would go SA. You would too if you were being honest.

Tactics is one thing, some of you guys are literally saying that at the ragged edge of your accuracy you would say your DA shit is just as accurate as your SA. That is nonsense.

If that’s the case you would all shoot DAO. You can train to make a fast accurate DA first shot. To say that with no time constraint and an absolute need for one perfect shot the DA shot is your first choice is moronic.

Come on. I stick a plate out at 100 yards with a full magazine and a beer on the line. 17 SA shots or 17 DA shots none of you would do better going all DA. Which is the point. This is a ONE shot, extreme accuracy question. You stack the deck question. Tactically is one thing, saying your DA shit is “just as” is not true. Not at range with no time constraint. One shot for the marbles.

Nah, under this scenario shooting DA might be the better tactic but SA is the best chance of a perfect hit. It’s common sense which you can demonstrate yourselves every time you go to the range.

Put your target at extreme range, full mag all DA then all SA then come back here and honestly tell us they were the same or the DA was better. BS. Lol

It’s certainly not bullshit. There’s no hardware solution to a software problem. If you can’t make the shot using the weapon properly, either up your training or accept your limitations and don’t take the shot.

If you have to make one perfect shot, you have the time, and it’s absolutely vital to make one hit. Forget tactics just have to make one hit. Of course you shoot better SA. This isn’t a standard shot. It’s at extreme range with a handgun. If you think you can hit more accurately at extreme range better DA than SA you are kidding yourself.

This is so stupid it’s not even funny. Go to the range and post a target as far out as you think you can hit or would take a shot. Shoot X rounds DA then the same amount SA. Measure the group and the hits, report back. This isn’t rocket science.

I’m not getting into tactics, personally the best tactic is getting away as described. I’m arguing it is silly to pretend that at the ragged edge of range and accuracy you won’t get a better hit probability going single action. Come on be real. Go try it out and report honest results. The SA portion will be better. Probably not by a ton but better. It’s physics, it’s physiology, it’s common sense. One shot all the marbles long range. No brainer which shot gives you the better chance of hitting.

The funny thing about this is handgun hunters do this all the time. Of course you go SA, it takes the variables down to a minimum.

I love the hardware, software, egotism of the handgun people. A short crisp trigger vs a longer heavier trigger is better for extreme accuracy. That hasn’t been an argument since flintlocks. Olympic shooters don’t shoot DA because it’s MORE accurate.

This is a mental exercise. Tactics wise is one answer. Pure accuracy is another, which is what I’m posting about. Arguing you are more accurate going DA at extreme range is easily disproven by doing it yourself. Measure the groups/hits and see for yourself. Common sense meets reality.

The gun is out in my hand, I'm far enough away to have time to prepare a and pistol is pointed somewhere safe. Hell yes I'm going sa.
I carried a cz for a long time and regularly practiced the first da shot but in this scenario I'm not firing from the draw with speed and in a panic so why wouldn't I want the advantage of a lighter and more crisp trigger?

Assuming any misses will not endanger innocents, I think the best strategy is to not even think about cocking the hammer back. Shoot and keep shooting until the perp is unable to continue.

I am assuming the shooter is actively shooting. If he's hunkered down or standing still, and you have time to make a precise shot, that's different and, probably, unlikely. That is what I pictured originally in your scenario, that there was a bit of time to allow going SA.

Going down on one knee or prone will cause you to be shooting slightly upwards, which could reduce the chances of a miss hitting bystanders further away. It might also make you less visible to the shooter if he turns towards you.

Keep in mind your scenario is the perp wearing armor. This increases your risks dramatically. And there is always a risk of you being mistaken by another good guy as the perp. Choosing to engage when the perp is not immediately threatening you is a big risk. My personal philosophy is that my gun is to protect me and my family. Where you live in Texas, every adult can carry a firearm for their own protection, so you are not their personal protection force. It is not your fault they chose not to be prepared. You will probably be sued if you hit a bystander. So in general, first I would try to evacuate my family and any others nearby if there is an exit route. If not, establish a secure location to defend.

Of course there are a million details and exceptions. e.g a bunch of children are being targeted. Or I can engage the shooter from behind hard cover, which could distract him from shooting others and I have a good advantage if he approaches me.

In real life your brain will go into emergency mode. You'll revert to what you've practiced. Imho you wouldn't even notice the difference between DA or SA. I'm just an average guy who shoots once in a while.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
It’s at extreme range with a handgun. If you think you can hit more accurately at extreme range better DA than SA you are kidding yourself.

If the results at 50 on the range say I’m just as accurate, am I still kidding myself? If the over half of Bianchi competitors that are still shooting for extremes accuracy in action pistol matches are not only thriving in action pistol but winning action pistol. With a DA/SA pistol. Are they kidding themselves?

If you have an accident using the pistol as it’s not intended and you get hammered for some type of manslaughter- is that kidding yourself?

Do you advocate dropping the hammer by pulling the trigger and lowering the hammer with your thumb “in very specific circumstances” or do you use the decocker always as the gun is designed? Or is that just kidding yourself?

Or do you just get another gun and use it as it’s designed instead?

Learn to shoot the pistol as it’s designed. If you’re unwilling or unable to, get something else.

I’m shooting the shot in DA. At 5 yards or 50. Or 100. And I know exactly where the bullet is going at each. Matter of fact, I know a bunch of dudes that can perform this task. Someone had better tell them that they are kidding themselves……

That is the old “under stress you won’t even notice” nonsense. You aren’t going to shoot better under stress than without. Unless you are Michael Jordan. Lol

Anybody here hunt with handguns? Do you cock that revolver to take that animal at your personal limit or do you jus5 stroke through a DA pull? The answer is simple. At range handguns are hard to hit with period. You take every advantage you can get. Use support. Use optics. Go single action.

Somehow this has turned into ishe wearing armor, are there kids, will the hammer slip and fire (which is an odd answer since I assume we aren’t shooting Peacemakers), etc.

I read the question as a simple one. At the extreme range scenario, in fact he literally says it is at a distance that you question your ability to hit. He then asks would going SA improve your chances. To my mind that is an easy yes. Of course it would. I would take that bet agains5 an6 of you at the range. Of course your extreme range target shooting SA would have more/better hits than all DA. (I get we are only talking 1 shot but doing it multiple times for testing purposes makes for a more legit answer)

Armor, kids, upward shot, head shot, tactics. I thought it was a simple question of whether SA would be more accurate and if so would it then make sense to do so. And then a lot of square range, hardware doesn’t solve software, ammo and training, blah blah blah. Simple question. One very hard shot, no time constraint, nothing to do with the draw, would you prefer that shot DA or SA?

Come on jones. The question isn’t 50 yards. It is at the extreme limit of your ability. It’s right there in his first post, he literally says he’s not sure he can make the shot.

At the extreme (or perhaps beyond) limit of YOUR ability to make a shot just for beers. Take out the posturing of legal liability , kids, etc. Just pure shooting. Are you saying under those conditions you would rather stroke through your 229 than thumb it back, take your time and take you4 shot? If you still say yes, then yes I think you are kidding yourself.

All that stuff you wrote has zero to do with the question. Wha5 does thumbing the hammer down have anything to do with the OP’s question? Nothing. As for gun games, also nothing. All those games are well within the competitors limits and most choices are constrained by the game. Again irrelevant.

This is a simple best accuracy to get best chance of one hit at a range that you question your ability to hit at. (I know, don’t take the shot, we get it. This is a hypothetical)