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No longer a gray area. It is straight up forbidden by the FAA. They have found that free flight time is compensation. A pilot MUST pay for at least their share of the costs. Nick "I cannot imagine any condition which would cause a ship to founder. I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this vessel. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that." -Capt. Edward Smith | |||
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why I asked, #9 ( out of ten )on my bucket list: http://georgiaaquarium.org/experience I hope it will happen in the next six years, w/o going through the commercial airline route. once again , your information was great . thats why I love this place Safety, Situational Awareness and proficiency. Neck Ties, Hats and ammo brass, Never ,ever touch'em w/o asking first | |||
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Don't Panic |
Not an aviator - that seems very odd. Is there an underlying rationale for not letting airplane owners do that? | |||
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אַרְיֵה |
Ah, with that information, I can give you a better recommendation. I see absolutely no need for the King Air that you mentioned in your original post, unless you really want to pay big $$$ to arrive in air conditioned, pressurized, style and luxury. If you're willing to do it on the Ford or Chevy level instead of the Mercedes level, just find somebody who is either
If they had offered the general public flights, I could not have done this, as that would be stepping into Part 135 territory, and an Operating certificate for this would have been necessary. Bottom line: Easiest thing for Bendable to do would be to find a pilot who would like to make the trip and is willing to pay his / her share of the cost. No rules will be broken, and even the most anal FAA inspector will not be able to find a transgression. הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים | |||
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| אַרְיֵה |
Yup. The thinking on the FAA's part is that if a person / company is going to provide air taxi / charter services, they must meet all requirements under Part 135 of the regs. Not-for-hire flights operate under Part 91. You can see all of the regs at the website: faa.gov Carrying the thinking further, if you are a pilot and offer to take Bendable wherever he wants to go providing that Bendable pays all the costs, you are deemed to have received compensation -- you get to fly and log the hours on Bendable's nickel. A private pilot is not permitted to fly for compensation (a small exception, if the a person who holds a private certificate is employed and flying is NOT the primary job requirement, then the pilot may fly while employed, the flying being incidental to the overall job. Example: you are a sales person, or maybe a construction supervisor, and you need to travel for company business related to non-aviation work. If you are a pilot, you may do the flight, since the act of flying is incidental, just part of getting your main job done.) Other than that exception, if you fly for any sort of compensation, you must hold at least a commercial certificate. הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים | |||
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| Member |
Vtail has is spot on with my current understanding of the regs. It's unfortunate, but the small planes that don't seem like much cost a lot. They cost a lot to maintain, fuel, and operate. In a 135 operation they cost a lot to train and pay the crew. It does not need to be a luxury private jet to be expensive. Friday I hopped out of my $1000 beater Cavalier with my son and into a $150k twin piston Piper Aerostar for a day trip to Niagara Falls. We were fortunate to fly on the empty legs for another flight. If the flight was a standalone request would cost just under $1500. My son Isaac before his first flight.  In my search for your request I found pricing as low as $6300 for a Cirrus SR22. They would require a fuel stop and they did not respond to my request. From the offers I received was a King Air for $11.7k, a Citation Mustang for $12.3k, and a Beechcraft 400 at $18.2k. There are many pilots willing to pay their share for a flight like that. After receiving their instrument rating and working toward their commercial rating or 1200 hours, pilots are just attempting to build time anyway possible. You might call flight schools and see if anyone is interested in splitting a long cross country flight to build time. But, they may not entertain the request as it is a gray area skirting the 135 regs. Not illegal, but not explicitly allowed. Flight schools and operators will do nearly anything to keep their FAA certificates. Without it, they cease to be. Nick "I cannot imagine any condition which would cause a ship to founder. I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this vessel. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that." -Capt. Edward Smith | |||
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Not to hijack but. Two of my favorite pics from Friday's trip.   Nick "I cannot imagine any condition which would cause a ship to founder. I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this vessel. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that." -Capt. Edward Smith | |||
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Member |
Yes, as a private pilot I would not take that deal. The FAA will pull certificates for stunts like that. I wish I could find it now, but my flight school had an article on the wall. A private pilot did a number of ferry flights for a friend as a favor. The pilot used his own plane and fuel, and there was no other compensation involved. The FAA got involved somehow, and pulled the pilot's license. Their ruling was that even though no money exchanged hands, flying the ferry as a favor incurred future "goodwill" and this goodwill was a form of compensation. "The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people." "Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy." "I did," said Ford, "it is." "So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?" "It honestly doesn't occur to them. They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates the government they want." "You mean they actually vote for the lizards." "Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course." "But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?" "Because if they didn't vote for a lizard, then the wrong lizard might get in." | |||
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Nick "I cannot imagine any condition which would cause a ship to founder. I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this vessel. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that." -Capt. Edward Smith | |||
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chickenshit |
Nick, VTail, and others... Where do you even begin to search for flights such as these? I've tried in vain to find flights from Central Florida to the Bahamas. Do small FBO's have charter services? ____________________________ Yes, Para does appreciate humor. | |||
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| Member |
Google charter services. I'm sure there are several in the Orlando area that would do Bahamas trips. In regards to price, you'd want to find a company with planes already in central Florida. Here's one I found on google in 2 seconds http://airflightcharters.com/ http://www.orlandojetcharter.c...t/passenger-charter/ | |||
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| אַרְיֵה |
Good question. In the old days I would just open a phone book (remember them?) and look in the yellow pages. Not sure where to look now. Your "Location" says East Central Florida. What airport would be convenient for you? I'm guessing maybe Titusville, here's a link to their information page on http://www.airnav.com/airports/. Or if Melbourne or Vero Beach might be more convenient, you can check them. Scroll to the bottom of the page, you'll see contact information for FBOs. Give them a call, they should be able to point you in the right direction. Some definition: Part 135 operators are air taxi / charter services. Sort of airborne Uber, you schedule them at your convenience. Scheduled operations are regulated by Part 121. I know that there are some 121 operators who do scheduled flights to some Bahamas locations, pretty sure there are a few out of the Miami area. If you're going to one of the Bahamas airports that has scheduled service, you'll probably pay less for a seat on a 121 carrier. If you're going to one of the Out Islands that does not have scheduled service, a 135 operator is your only choice. Or a hybrid -- a 121 flight to Nassau, Freeport, or ... with a Bahamian equivalent of 135 to your final destination. If you're going to an Out Island resort, they can very likely give you a lot of information. הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים | |||
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| Don't Panic |
Ah. The deal is, one gives up the right to earn with your plane in exchange for lighter regulation. Thanks for the explanation. | |||
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| Ammoholic |
I'll probably get this a little mangled, or it may have changed, but at one time at least the FAA had two mandates: 1) Protect the flying public, and 2) Promote aviation. No conflict of interest there.  There are limitations on what a pilot can do, what an airplane can do, and what an operation can do. Prior to the addition of the recreational pilot and sport pilot certificates, the different pilot certificates were: Student pilot: Cannot carry passengers, can only fly types of airplanes checked out in and signed off for by a flight instructor. Flights must be approved by a flight instructor and written approval received. Private pilot: Can fly self and non-paying passengers. Cannot receive financial benefit for flying. The ability to share the direct costs of a flight with passengers is as close as they get to recouping any costs. Commercial pilot: Can get paid to fly (Hooray!), however, the specific operations allowed depend on the operation. Can (with appropriate training) tow banners, tow gliders, fly for an aerial photography operation, fly as an aerial applicator (crop duster), but this requires other training re chemicals etc. Can fly as pilot in command in part 135 passenger carrying operation IFF the operation's Operating Specifications (OpSpec) allows it. Can fly as second-in-command in a part 121 scheduled airline (this may have changed) subject to OPSPEC and training requirements. Airline Transport Pilot (ATP). Can act as PIC on a part 121 scheduled airline. Will (almost always) need a type rating in the specific aircraft flown. I'm sure there is an exception - some part 121 operation flying equipment that doesn't require a type rating, but they'd be the exception. A way to think of it is like this: In order to protect the public, putting yourself out there to do things that may involve more risk to the public requires more training and certification. Just a student? You don't get to endanger anyone but yourself (and those on the ground) AND you have to have a certified flight instructor looking over your shoulder and making sure you don't get in over your head. Private pilot? Okay, you have learned a bit more. You get to be responsible for the safety of your friends and family, but you don't get to charge random strangers money to put their lives in your hands. Commercial pilot? You've learned some more still and can fly for pay. If you are just staying in the local area, not likely to run into weather or other issues in route, you may be able to "just do it." If you are talking about carrying random people (that public we are supposed to protect) over distance, we want more insight into what is going on and we will need to approve an Operating Specification (OPSPEC) that goes into a lot of detail about how you are going to do that and keep those random people safe. The OPSPEC will have to cover the specific aircraft you are going to use for the operation (and we will require more maintenance on those aircraft) the specific pilot qualifications and training, etc. ATP: Great, you walk on water. Congratulations! You can carry random people to places on a schedule, but we are going to be even pickier about you OPSPEC and your equipment. Like a lot of things involving a large organization, it makes sense at the 10,000' level. When you get down into the details, you sometimes find things that make you scratch your head, but that's life. | |||
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| אַרְיֵה |
Good summary, good analogies, slosig. One comment re what you said about ATP and requiring type rating for Part 121: Type ratings are required for airplanes with gross weight of 12,500 lbs and above, and also for all jets regardless of gross weight. There certainly are Part 121 operations that do not require a type rating. In hand-waving terms, if flights operate on a published schedule, it's a 121 operation. Could be something as lightweight as a Baron, Navajo, Cessna 421, etc., none of which require a type rating. הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים | |||
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| Save an Elephant Kill a Poacher  |
Years ago I called a lear jet company to inquire what it would cost to fly from Kalifornia to Hawaii where we are most likely going to move too. I was thinking we could take a private jet and have the dogs in the plane with us. The lady on the phone replied 'oh about 30' I asked her 30 dollars an hour? No she replied, 30 thousand. So here we sit and wait.... 'I am the danger'...Hiesenberg NRA Certified Pistol Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Life Member | |||
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"Member" |
I was going to say rent a car... but for the same amount of money you could buy a car.  _____________________________________________________ Sliced bread, the greatest thing since the 1911. | |||
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| Member |
A friend and someone we work with was going to Hawaii from our area, NE Ohio. They were going with the extended family and were taking nearly 40 people if I remember right. She asked me to price out a charter flight. This kind of request was well outside my experience. I asked someone in the business for an estimate. It was over a million dollars. A flight on an ultra-long range Gulfstream or Global Express to Europe will be into six figures. Sadly airplanes are expensive. Even the small ones. They are expensive to purchase, fly and maintain. When you are flying on an airline you are sharing the cost with 100 other people, (plus those that no-show thanks to over booking, But I digress.) When you are chartering a plane you are renting the whole plane. When someone calls me and asks for a "ticket" to somewhere, I know the call is not going to go well. Nick "I cannot imagine any condition which would cause a ship to founder. I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this vessel. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that." -Capt. Edward Smith | |||
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| Eye on the Silver Lining |
I thought this was a go? I just read something about a company like that basically operating in the Dakotas, it said something like big races, the Derby, the Super Bowl, and dog shows were the biggest tickets, so it's clearly been operating..I'll try and find what I read and bring the link here. http://www.duluthnewstribune.c...nt-helpful-local-faa __________________________ "Trust, but verify." | |||
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| Member |
Yes and no. They have an app interface. They are not able to allow owner/pilots, such as V-Tail, to fly for them. You must be a FAA certified part 135 operator. Where TapJets is getting it wrong is by not allowing any piston powered aircraft. Turbine powered aircraft are very expensive per hour to operate and charter. Our twin pistons are flying at $500 per hour plus fees. Our twin turbines are $1100 per hour, which is actually quite low for the industry. Right now FlyOtto is probably the closest to an Uber of the skies. Still all aircraft are on a part 135 certificate. FlyOtto is focusing on smaller aircraft Piston to twin turbo. They are starting to sign up some jets as well. Still, Uber allows nearly anybody to drive for them. I highly doubt that the FAA will ever allow such "ride sharing" for your average owner/pilot. Nick "I cannot imagine any condition which would cause a ship to founder. I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this vessel. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that." -Capt. Edward Smith | |||
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