Thank flashguy for posting those photos. I was there between Christmas and New Years 1973. It was beautiful. Even was able to climb up there with the gargoyles.
Such a loss for the whole world.

I can share from personal experience that church fires are nasty. There are all sorts of nooks & crannies for fire to hide in as well as natural passages that allow fire to spread quickly.

Once a fire gets a good foothold in a church you have a real fight on your hands.

$100 Million donation is the first to be offered to kick off the reconstruction...

Fox News > https://www.foxnews.com/world/...-dame-reconstruction

quote:

Originally posted by Mutiny:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:

quote:

Originally posted by Mutiny:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
Wood scaffolding currently around the structure probably didn't help matters.

they use steel scaffolding.

Aren't the platforms wood? Wood planks on a metal frame would be the worst. If it was all wood, it would fall away as it burns. Steel frame would hold the "tinder" up as it burns.

I don't specifically know what is being used for platforms at ND, but the scaffolds used on most Paris construction sites use aluminum or perforated steel platforms on the steel scaffolding.

Although the fire is believed to have started in the complex interior network of wooden beams in the attic, video showed that scaffolding around the base of the spire, part of extensive renovations that were underway, was one of the first places to visibly catch fire.

Yeah, I think 1850 is the time the fire became externally visible, and the alarm was in fact raised during visiting hours already. Heard at least one eyewitness state on TV last night that they were advised to leave the building for unspecified safety reasons. Of course workers probably left at six. I'm with the guy who stated early on the thread that it was probably some doofus leaving oily rags near a heat source or similar. I've had Deep Purple playing in my head all morning.

quote:

Originally posted by OKCGene:
Question for the engineers:

If it is rebuilt with steel, how long will steel last?

So many skyscrapers have been built in congested areas, such as NYC.

This wooden structure lasted 800 years.

How long will steel last? I’m thinking of rust and corrosion. Will metal fatigue over a long period of time? Become brittle or something?

Could a steel skyscraper or structure of steel such as a rebuilt Notre Dame Church last 800 years?

I don't know about long-term, but mid-term resilience would certainly improve. Cologne Cathedral had somewhat of good luck sitting unfinished for centuries after medieval enthusiasm waned and its style was overtaken by Renaissance architecture. It was only finished in the 19th century on a wave of German nationalism, largely to luckily found medieval plans, but iron supports for the roof. While it was hit by several bombs during WW II, including incendary, and a major provisional patch was visible in one of the towers until the year 2000, structural integrity was never endangered.

quote:

Originally posted by Ronin1069:
I’ve been following the Twitter feeds coming out of France. There’s a trend of blaming Muslims, and Muslims posting tweets cheering the destruction of the church.

Let's hope that doesn't get out of hand, irrespective of the basis in fact.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:

quote:

Originally posted by Ronin1069:
I’ve been following the Twitter feeds coming out of France. There’s a trend of blaming Muslims, and Muslims posting tweets cheering the destruction of the church.

Let's hope that doesn't get out of hand, irrespective of the basis in fact.

I'd call that cultural push back if it does get out of hand.

https://www.express.co.uk/news...douard-phillipe-isis

This is the eleventh 'incident' involving a great church in France in a week.

That week was in February. I note that in typical "Express" fashion, they left out whom the Catholic watchdog group that pointed it out said it suspected, added some innocent mention of earlier Islamist acts for the reader to jump to conclusions, and pushed the old report up just now.

quote:

CATHOLIC CHURCHES ARE BEING DESECRATED ACROSS FRANCE—AND OFFICIALS DON’T KNOW WHY

BY BRENDAN COLE ON 3/21/19 AT 9:04 AM EDT

France has seen a spate of attacks against Catholic churches since the start of the year, vandalism that has included arson and desecration.

Vandals have smashed statues, knocked down tabernacles, scattered or destroyed the Eucharist and torn down crosses, sparking fears of a rise in anti-Catholic sentiment in the country.

[...]

The Vienna-based Observatory of Intolerance and Discrimination Against Christians in Europe, which was founded in cooperation with the Council of European Bishops Conferences (CCEE) but is now independent said there had been a 25 percent increase in attacks on Catholic churches in the first two months of the year, compared with the same time last year.

Its executive director, Ellen Fantini, told Newsweek that while in many cases the motive for the attacks was not known, France faced growing problems with anti-Christian violence, especially by anarchist and feminist groups.

“I think there is a rising hostility in France against the church and its symbols," but "it seems to be more against Christianity and the symbols of Christianity.

“These attacks are on symbols that are really sacred to parishioners, to Catholics. Desecration of consecrated hosts is a very personal attack on Catholicism and Christianity, more than spray-painting a slogan on the outside wall of a church.”

She said that while France had a long tradition of secularism, it was seen as a culturally Christian country, and so any "attack on the church as a symbol of religion was also an attack on authority and patrimony.

"The pressure is coming from the radical secularists or anti-religion groups as well as feminist activists who tend to target churches as a symbol of the patriarchy that needs to be dismantled," she added.

[...]

https://www.newsweek.com/spate...hrist-statue-1370800

If the fire turned out to be intentional, Islamists would certainly be a prime possibility, but there would be no shortage of other suspects. France does in fact have a history of anti-Catholic acts, from Huguenots smashing statues at Notre Dame as idolatrous after Reformation to the building being turned into a "Temple of Reason" and used as a warehouse after the French Revolution, to the modern secularity laws that started off in 1905 with Catholic orders being disbanded, Church property being seized (this is why the building of Notre Dame is state-owned) and active Catholics being persecuted in the public service, to the point that several ten thousand fled the country.

As the "Newsweek" report indicates, the Church remains a popular target for those in revolution-happy France who see it as a rival in or just a representative of power and authority. It wouldn't be too far-fetched to link this year's rise in vandalism to the Yellow Vest protest movement with its very diverse ideological elements, some of which have also been cheerfully smashing things and lighting fires, as is the local political folklore.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
How about we wait for the facts?

Who wants facts? We’re a forum. We know everything there is to know about maritime accidents, plane crashes, and now fire investigations.

quote:

Originally posted by Hangtime:

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:

quote:

Originally posted by Ronin1069:
I’ve been following the Twitter feeds coming out of France. There’s a trend of blaming Muslims, and Muslims posting tweets cheering the destruction of the church.

Let's hope that doesn't get out of hand, irrespective of the basis in fact.

I'd call that cultural push back if it does get out of hand.

I would not be unhappy to see a backlash take place - however violent and ugly, it needs to happen

time to put the 4th century vermin back in the hole where they belong

The sad thing is. You can’t really rebuild this. You can’t rebuild history so to speak. Yes you can slap up a modern recreation but that isn’t nearly the same.

Rebuilding something like the twin towers (not speculating this is terrorism just using a modern equivalent) is totally plausible. They don’t have the weight of history in them like a structure such as Notre Dame etc. has.

quote:

The sad thing is. You can’t really rebuild this.

You can... but not quite the same. Notre Dame's roof beams were made from primal oak, from oak trees that had stood for 500 years before Notre Dame was built. There are no primal oaks left in France. The builders will have to use something else for building materials.

The roof beams will most likely be steel when it is repaired.

I was happy to read this morning that the rose windows seemed to have survived. I hope any damage can be repaired.


Full article here..

(CNN)The cathedral of Notre Dame in Paris is home to scores of priceless artifacts, artwork and relics collected over the centuries, each with their own story.

As a devastating fire tore through the revered Gothic cathedral on Monday, toppling its spire, many feared these treasures might be lost forever.

....many details, such as possible water damage from the operation to save the building, are still unclear.

What was saved:

The Crown of Thorns, which some believe was placed on the head of Jesus and which the cathedral calls its "most precious and most venerated relic," was rescued from the fire, according to Paris Mayor Anne Hidalgo.

Hidalgo confirmed the Tunic of Saint Louis and other "major" works were also saved.

The facade and twin bell towers, the tallest structures in Paris until the completion of the Eiffel Tower in the late 19th century, survived the blaze.

The cathedral's main bell, Emanuelle, lives in the South tower. It has marked significant moments in French history, such as the end of World War II, as well as holidays and special occasions.

The Rose windows are a trio of immense round stained-glass windows over the cathedral's three main portals that date back to the 13th century. The Archbishop of Paris said all three have been saved, reports CNN affiliate BFM TV.

The original Great Organ, one of the world's most famous musical instruments, dates back to medieval times. Over the years, organ makers renovated the instrument and added onto it, but it still contained pipes from the Middle Ages before Monday's fire.

It's kind of mind-boggling that Muslims in France are joyful that Notre Dame has burned. My Italian grandparents, immigrants to America, were grateful, and considered themselves-- and us, their progeny-- to be lucky to be here.

These immigrants in France, however, are not merely ungrateful, they are hostile and menacing. And the French-- along with the Germans, the Dutch, the Swedes, etc.-- abide them, and cater to them. Even coddle them.

The whole thing is astonishing, really.

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne:
Yeah, I think 1850 is the time the fire became externally visible, and the alarm was in fact raised during visiting hours already. Heard at least one eyewitness state on TV last night that they were advised to leave the building for unspecified safety reasons. Of course workers probably left at six. I'm with the guy who stated early on the thread that it was probably some doofus leaving oily rags near a heat source or similar. I've had Deep Purple playing in my head all morning.

quote:

Originally posted by OKCGene:
Question for the engineers:

If it is rebuilt with steel, how long will steel last?

So many skyscrapers have been built in congested areas, such as NYC.

This wooden structure lasted 800 years.

How long will steel last? I’m thinking of rust and corrosion. Will metal fatigue over a long period of time? Become brittle or something?

Could a steel skyscraper or structure of steel such as a rebuilt Notre Dame Church last 800 years?

I don't know about long-term, but mid-term resilience would certainly improve. Cologne Cathedral had somewhat of good luck sitting unfinished for centuries after medieval enthusiasm waned and its style was overtaken by Renaissance architecture. It was only finished in the 19th century on a wave of German nationalism, largely to luckily found medieval plans, but iron supports for the roof. While it was hit by several bombs during WW II, including incendary, and a major provisional patch was visible in one of the towers until the year 2000, structural integrity was never endangered.

I've been above the ceiling of Köln Cathedral when I visited the pipe organ builder we were considering for my church. The roof had been damaged during WWII and was rebuilt afterward. It was fascinating to view that part of the building.

flashguy

quote:

Originally posted by justjoe:
It's kind of mind-boggling that Muslims in France are joyful that Notre Dame has burned.

Trump haters aren’t the only deranged people on the planet.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

The sad thing is. You can’t really rebuild this.

You can... but not quite the same. Notre Dame's roof beams were made from primal oak, from oak trees that had stood for 500 years before Notre Dame was built. There are no primal oaks left in France. The builders will have to use something else for building materials.

The roof beams will most likely be steel when it is repaired.

There is no way in hell the French are going to use steel to rebuild that roof. No, it will be wood brought in from somewhere else in the world and they will have specialists from all over the world working on it and it will be close to the original when done. It may take them 10 years but it will be rebuilt to its former glory.

quote:

Originally posted by cheesegrits:
I was happy to read this morning that the rose windows seemed to have survived. I hope any damage can be repaired.

What was saved:

The Crown of Thorns, which some believe was placed on the head of Jesus and which the cathedral calls its "most precious and most venerated relic," was rescued from the fire, according to Paris Mayor Anne Hidalgo.

Hidalgo confirmed the Tunic of Saint Louis and other "major" works were also saved.

The facade and twin bell towers, the tallest structures in Paris until the completion of the Eiffel Tower in the late 19th century, survived the blaze.

The cathedral's main bell, Emanuelle, lives in the South tower. It has marked significant moments in French history, such as the end of World War II, as well as holidays and special occasions.

The Rose windows are a trio of immense round stained-glass windows over the cathedral's three main portals that date back to the 13th century. The Archbishop of Paris said all three have been saved, reports CNN affiliate BFM TV.

The original Great Organ, one of the world's most famous musical instruments, dates back to medieval times. Over the years, organ makers renovated the instrument and added onto it, but it still contained pipes from the Middle Ages before Monday's fire.

Father Jean-Marc Fournier sounds like he deserves a lot of credit for saving key items. Looks like he's a "man of action" based on his past deeds...



Notre-Dame Treasures, Relics Saved After Firefighter-Priest Led Human Chain Inside Burning Cathedral

The chaplain to the Parisian fire brigade has been hailed as a hero after it was revealed he led efforts to save the priceless holy relics and art stored inside Notre-Dame Cathedral.

The story of Father Jean-Marc Fournier was reported by Christian journalist of French Catholic Television station KTOTV, who revealed the chaplain went into the burning cathedral to retrieve relics and art before they could be damaged by fire and falling debris. Reports state the priest formed a human chain to carry the items away from danger.

Following up that report, the Katholiek Nieuwsblad states Fr Fournier has a history of Christian mission under dangerous circumstances. The newspaper reports he responded with the fire brigade to the 2015 Bataclan terror attacks in Paris, where Islamist extremists killed 90 with rifles and suicide vests at a rock concert in the city, where he was “quickly on the scene after the attack… he helped remove the wounded from the hall and prayed with the bodies of the victims.”

The priest also served as a chaplain to the French army and survived an ambush in Afghanistan where ten French soldiers were killed.

Television network Sky News reports the remarks of one member of the Paris emergency services who said of the chaplain: “Father Fournier is an absolute hero."

“He showed no fear at all as he made straight for the relics inside the cathedral, and made sure they were saved. He deals with life and death every day, and shows no fear.”

A French journalist reports artwork and sacred relics inside Paris' Notre Dame Cathedral have been saved as a fire rips through the more than 800-year-old church.

Among the relics saved in the effort was Notre-Dame’s most famous and revered and holy relic, the gold-encrusted Crown of Thorns, believed to be the wreath of thorns that was placed on the head of Jesus Christ at his crucifixion. That the relic was saved flashed around the world on Monday evening, but news of further items saved emerged Tuesday morning.

Many of the objects removed from the Cathedral were bundled up in packaging and placed in Paris’s city hall.

https://www.breitbart.com/euro...n-burning-cathedral/

quote:

Notre-Dame Treasures, Relics Saved After Firefighter-Priest Led Human Chain Inside Burning Cathedral

Hallelujah