To the fuel issue, one also looks in the tanks & starts with a ‘known quantity’. Along with that you have a rough idea of fuel burn. In one plane I had, 7.25 GPH average, I used 8 for general planning.

I used to own one plane that had one tank indicator inop for a while. It seems like it was never an issue, timing then land selected to the side that worked.

Like most anything, people can have lapses. Not to much is more important than keeping clean fuel flowing to the aircraft engine(s). It’s Truly some ‘low hanging fruit’ of accident prevention.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
Actually, fuel exhaustion usually occurs toward the end of the flight, rather than mid-flight.

Yep, I'm not a pilot but I have to agree.

^^^ “Two ways,” he said. “Gradually and then suddenly.”

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:
Wasn't there a Canadian airliner that, through a series of misunderstandings, ran out of fuel in mid-flight?

The "Gimli Glider"



Also of note, UAL flight 173, and Avianca 052. Also that flight that took out a South American soccer team (LaMia 2933 IIRC). Many members of Lynard Skynard were killed in a charter flight that ran out of fuel.

Wasn’t there a TACA jet that did something similar. Hence the name, Take A Chance Airline?

Edited: I was wrong, it was a thunderstorm forced it down on a levee. Interesting point they replace the motors and took off from a nearby roadway. Winning!

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

Originally posted by KDR:
...I can't imagine an instructor not calculating fuel for the flight plan correctly...

You're underestimating the power of human stupidity or arrogance, because it has happened.

I read the article. I didn't see where it said he was a "great" instructor. Hell, not even a "good" instructor.

Hmmmm, I read the article also. It described the instructor as “Alyssa Simeon, 23”. I assumed the instructor was a woman with that name. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, most women pilots I’ve flown with do a great job. (That said, I don’t work in an industry that has hired for “diversity”, and it would not surprise me in the least to hear a completely different take on women pilots from airline pilots. I’m guessing that would be more of an indictment of diversity hiring than women pilots, but that’s just a guess.)

Another possible consideration: A 23 year old instructor may not have a whole lot of experience. One of the things that is interesting about instructing is that you have to try to teach the student while simultaneously keeping track of all the things you need to keep track of as pilot in command. Getting caught up in trying to communicate a concept to the student and failing to keep adequate attention on monitoring the state of the flight is easy to do. If it happens to you and you’re lucky, you realize the mistake and fix it, hopefully without the student even noticing. If you’re not lucky, metal may get bent and/or people may get hurt. As an instructor, you are responsible for the safe outcome of the flight and you have to make ensuring that first and teach second. The more experience and “unconscious competency” in ensuring safe conduct of the flight, the more bandwidth available for teaching.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

A 23 year old instructor may not have a whole lot of experience.

Very true. Maybe a big under-statement.

I was 29 or 30 when I started instructing. I was sort of overwhelmed by the responsibility. For example, it was entirely up to my judgement to tell a new student, "You're ready to solo. I'm getting out of the airplane now -- you go ahead and fly it around the pattern by yourself."

Young folks with instructor certificates make me a little nervous. I have had people ask me about starting to learn, and they ask me what to look for in an instructor. My first response is "gray hair." I.e. look for somebody with a lot of experience.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:
It described the instructor as “Alyssa Simeon, 23”. I assumed the instructor was a woman with that name. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, most women pilots I’ve flown with do a great job. (That said, I don’t work in an industry that has hired for “diversity”, and it would not surprise me in the least to hear a completely different take on women pilots from airline pilots. I’m guessing that would be more of an indictment of diversity hiring than women pilots, but that’s just a guess.)

I was an instructor at the airline for many years. A "Line Check Airman". I flew with a lot of women pilots either in my position as instructor or on just regular flights.

There is definitely a difference, in general, between male and female pilots. Men understand the physical systems better, whereas women seem better at seeing the big picture and communicating. Men are better at asserting themselves on the airplane, women have more finesse when hand flying. The quality level is generally pretty high by the time a pilot got to the airline. If you picture a bell curve, male pilots cluster around the average (which is quite proficient). Most of the female pilots would be on the better side of the average, while a few would be on the bad side of average.

The few that were not good were obviously passed through the system when they shouldn't have been. The same would be true of other minority groups, where a few that should have been weeded out were not.

Our training standard was "Would I put my family on that pilot's airplane on a challenging day?". We didn't pass anyone until the answer was "Yes". I did fail a number of pilots who could not meet the standard.

I am much more concerned about inexperience than any other category. We learn from when things go badly, and to some extent when things go amazingly well.

Back in the early 90's a former military instructor pilot ran out of fuel in a Cessna. He was getting his civilian pilot certificate which required a small amount of training and flying. One requirement was a solo cross country.

He was on a 3 leg cross country. Before departure, his instructor carefully went over the flight plan, including fuel planning, and told the student to refuel at the second stop. The student agreed.

But once out flying solo, this former military instructor pilot for some reason decided he had enough fuel to make it home. He ran out of gas about 10 miles short of his home airport, landing in the Arizona desert without any injury or bent metal.

His instructor was violated by the FAA for insufficient supervision. The student even testified in court that he chose not to refuel, contrary to his agreement with his instructor. The administrative law judge still found the instructor in violation, which ended the instructor's aviation career.

Anyhow, humans sometimes make bad decisions despite seemingly being experienced and educated.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
I was an instructor at the airline for many years. A "Line Check Airman". I flew with a lot of women pilots either in my position as instructor or on just regular flights.

There is definitely a difference, in general, between male and female pilots. Men understand the physical systems better, whereas women seem better at seeing the big picture and communicating. Men are better at asserting themselves on the airplane, women have more finesse when hand flying. The quality level is generally pretty high by the time a pilot got to the airline. If you picture a bell curve, male pilots cluster around the average (which is quite proficient). Most of the female pilots would be on the better side of the average, while a few would be on the bad side of average.

The few that were not good were obviously passed through the system when they shouldn't have been. The same would be true of other minority groups, where a few that should have been weeded out were not.

Our training standard was "Would I put my family on that pilot's airplane on a challenging day?". We didn't pass anyone until the answer was "Yes". I did fail a number of pilots who could not meet the standard.

I am much more concerned about inexperience than any other category. We learn from when things go badly, and to some extent when things go amazingly well.

Thanks for the detailed characterization of the difference! That all makes sense and gives a window into how the much more complex systems in part 121 equipment require a lot more effort to understand.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: slosig,

I ran out of fuel one time due to an unforeseen set of circumstances. Things can happen. It’s an uncomfortable feeling.

The biggest scare I ever had re possible fuel exhaustion was in the around 30 years ago. I was doing contract software development in Raleigh NC, commuting home for weekends in the V-tail. I had spent a nice weekend at home in Florida with my wife and was on the way back to Raleigh on Sunday evening.

Weather forecast for RDU was moderately crappy but no problem for an instrument approach. Forecast was such that an IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) alternate airport was a requirement for the flight plan. Florence SC had a forecast that met the requirements for an alternate, and the V-tail's fuel capacity gave me plenty for a flight from the Orlando area to RDU, an instrument approach there with a missed approach procedure, cruise back to Florence, fly the approach there, and land with plenty of reserve fuel.

The best laid plans . . .

I overflew Florence on the way to Raleigh. My favorite controller was working that sector. Never met her, but I was in serious lust with her, as her radio voice was indistinguishable from Dolly Parton's speaking voice. But, I digress.

The clouds, as I flew over the Florence area that evening, had a glow that could mean only one thing: fog and clouds from the surface right up to my altitude. I confirmed by asking the approach controller for their current weather conditions. "WOXOF" was the reply -- ceiling zero, visibility zero, in fog. Florence was no longer an alternate for me, weather-wise. Weather every place within a couple hundred miles had gone way worse than forecasted. I asked the controller to tell me the closest airport to RDU that had weather conditions suitable for an alternate, in the event that I was unable to land at RDU. Elizabeth City, was the reply.

I broke out the E6B (circular slide rule) and calculated the parameters for a new alternate. Looked like if I missed the approach at RDU, I could just barely make Elizabeth City and land with less than thirty minutes of fuel remaining. Barely. If everything worked perfectly.

I had never been in a position like this before; launching on a flight with plenty of fuel, given the current and forecast condones, and having the weather go totally to shit, leaving me with less than the legal minimum fuel on board and no options.

I continued to Raleigh, while studying every detail of the instrument approach chart for the expected runway at RDU. I knew that there was zero room for error.

This was a hand-flown approach; the V-tail did not have an autopilot that would couple to the instrument approach. My adrenaline level was probably off the chart. I don't think that I have ever been so focused. I willed the navigation needles to stay centered. The visibility at RDU was such that the tower controllers could not see the runway. There was an American 727 holding short of the runway, ready to depart after I cleared the runway. Tower told him that there was a Bonanza (me) on short final and asked American to report to tower when they saw me.

Decision Height on that approach was 200' -- if I did not have the runway environment in sight by the time I was down to two hundred feet above the surface (about 24 seconds prior to touchdown), I was required initiate a climb and follow the missed approach procedure. Not enough fuel for a second attempt and a flight to the alternate, so I would have to head directly for Elizabeth City and hope that my fuel calculations were correct.

I kept talking to myself, out loud, reciting my current altitude on the descent, and the altitude at which I would have to go full power for a climb. Just before reaching 200' above surface, I saw the sequenced strobe lights that lead to the touchdown zone of the runway. Never saw anything so beautiful in my life. Touched down, taxied to the parking area, retrieved my car, said a prayer of thanks, and went in search of a cold beer.

Great story, V-tail

Lots of good info etc here. Some aircraft have a max landing weight which may be of consideration when diverting to a nearby Airport immediately after takeoff. However, depending upon the circumstances, a too heavy landing may still be the best option. Their was a heavy jet, don't recall the company or type who chose to delay to burn fuel so as to not land too heavy. They ended up crashing, losing all aboard. Most decisions can have serious consequences.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
The biggest scare I ever had re possible fuel exhaustion was in the around 30 years ago. I was doing contract software development in Raleigh NC, commuting home for weekends in the V-tail. I had spent a nice weekend at home in Florida with my wife and was on the way back to Raleigh on Sunday evening.
.
.
.
Just before reaching 200' above surface, I saw the sequenced strobe lights that lead to the touchdown zone of the runway. Never saw anything so beautiful in my life. Touched down, taxied to the parking area, retrieved my car, said a prayer of thanks, and went in search of a cold beer.

Those are the days you never forget!

quote:

Originally posted by coloradohunter44:

Most decisions can have serious consequences.

Yup. You, with your experience as an Air Traffic Controller, pilot, and flight instructor, will probably agree with me when I say that most people can be taught to handle and fly an airplane in way less than half of the time required by the regs (Part 61 or 141). Most of my time as an instructor is training for planning, decision making, and dealing with Things That Go Wrong, and these are things that typically come with experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

Those are the days you never forget!

Never. Thankfully, weather forecasting has improved quite a bit since that happened, thirty years ago.

Another thing that got my attention, real quick, was ice starting to form on the leading edge of the wing on a day when icing conditions were NOT in the forecast! My V-tail was not equipped with boots, heated prop, or anything else to deal with ice.

Yes, ice you can see forming on the wings tends to make one think there is likely more on the horizontal stabilizer. This can really get you sweating when your only ice protection is pitot heat and in response to your request for lower the controller says he can’t give you lower until passing the VOR. Hmmm, watch and sweat for another ten minutes (that will feel like ten hours) or declare and start the descent below the MEA (minimum enroute altitude) since you know you’re past the higher terrain?

With my minimal experience at the time, I chose the former. It worked out, but that’s not the choice I’d make now.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by coloradohunter44:

Most decisions can have serious consequences.

Yup. You, with your experience as an Air Traffic Controller, pilot, and flight instructor, will probably agree with me when I say that most people can be taught to handle and fly an airplane in way less than half of the time required by the regs (Part 61 or 141). Most of my time as an instructor is training for planning, decision making, and dealing with Things That Go Wrong, and these are things that typically come with experience.

Yes sir. Decision making is key. Well thought out decisions backed by experience and dare I say common sense.