quote:

Originally posted by oddball:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
As far as I can tell, having read multiple histories of mankind covering many thousands of years, there is no such thing as a strictly honest governing system.

A corrupt political system became one of the downfalls of Rome. I dare say that corruption is an inherent part of government, there is no getting around it. Like death and taxes, corruption in a government system is a guarantee.

I would agree. The question is, when does the level of corruption reach the tipping point, where society will collapse and we become a third world nation (or worse).

quote:

A corrupt political system became one of the downfalls of Rome. I dare say that corruption is an inherent part of government, there is no getting around it. Like death and taxes, corruption in a government system is a guarantee.
I would agree. The question is, when does the level of corruption reach the tipping point, where society will collapse and we become a third world nation (or worse).

What people seem to forget is that government is run by people. It's not some mythical machine that operates dispassionately. It's subject to human nature. People, even those in government, are capable of both good and bad.

The big problem is that when you give government the power to do too much, to control too much, you can't escape the mistakes or the bad decisions. If you leave more to individuals, the free market, or to the private sector as we call it you will have other choices when an individual or a company does something wrong, makes a mistake or attempts to get 'greedy'.

Or, as Governor and Senator Huey Long of Louisiana put it,

"One of these days, the people of Lousiana are going to get good government, ...... and they ain't gonna like it!"

(A) Resign yourself (the universal) that a great many issues, ills, problems, and wishes can NEVER be legislated away. NEVER, EVER, and believing otherwise is pure folly.

(B) Use this unfortunate but undeniable reality as the basis for meaningful Prioritization. There are only so many hours in the day, days in a session, dollars and boots, and the like.

(C) Start by getting government out of a great many things it concerns itself with, and by scaling down what we do do to the point of lean, mean, and efficient work.

(D) Then, use that new found opportunity and freed up resources to do a much better job doing fewer, more important, things, avoiding the pointless, the emotional, the theatre.

(E) Win

Freedom and Liberty are messy, and difficult, but at least they're real and meaningful. Wasting untold finite resources on a gozillion pointless things is what we seem to do best, and nothing much will change until we deal with these realities and we prioritize better.

quote:

Originally posted by rduckwor:
A serious question, not a general bitch.

Consider the lobbyists, the back room deals, the "quid pro quo" situations which generate "pork".

The question is: Does corruption drive the function of our government?

Could/would this government function without all of the outside/inside/under-the-table deals?

I didn't read all the responses, so maybe already pointed out:
But the question is based on some straw-man argument, or at least "false assumptions".

Lobbyists are not illegal and that is not "corruption". It is very legitimately advocating for special interests....and we ALL have special interests.

"Back room deals" and "quid pro quos" are also not really necessary "corruption", in fact, the Founders would probably have been proud of that and called it "compromise". A lot of our Constitutional phrasing, etc, was the product of "back room deals" and "compromise".

But yes there is outright "corruption" and some things are illegal. I think we should crack down mercilessly on anything that has actually been declared "illegal".

While I agree at lobbying, back room deals and quid pro quo are not illegal, but they certainty lack transparency. Lack of transparency breeds corruption which is illegal. The methods of governing lend themselves to corruption.

RMD

What reduces corruption is visibility. A group as huge as the USG hides things simply by having so many irons in the fire that no-one can focus long on any one iron. To misquote Stalin, corruption in one endeavor is a headline, corruption in one million endeavors is a working bureaucracy.

It shouldn't be surprising, given that the national pastime is not baseball, but cheating.

The rules don't apply to some, full of loopholes, and you can't prove a thing anyway.

If there was a foolproof way to eliminate cheating on income tax returns, it would be the end of the republic. The only reason some tolerate the tax code is that they have the comfort of having found some little way to cheat it.

A government is an inanimate object and can't be inherently corrupt.

People are corruptible and corrupt everything the touch.

As a retired govt purchasing director and contracting officer I have seen instances of govt working quite well without corruption. Sometimes it happens. One problem is that people assume that because something is not illegal, it is moral and right. The problem is that lobbyists write laws that provide loopholes that allow circumvention of rules that were written to protect the taxpayer.

if we could just take the money aspect out of it , we'd be fine.

nothing to do with making,spending, distributing or saving money.

Pay attention to the punch line!




Link to original video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WS9mbl4twdU

“Corruption, the most infallible symptom of constitutional liberty.” — Edward Gibbon

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Are the Latinos who were peopling his plant in Texas intrinsically dishonest or bad compared to the Mormons? No.

Not sure I agree with this statement. I tend to believe there is a correlation between morality and culture/religion. I think different populations would game the system at different rates, other things being equal.

Mundy's anecdote tells us nothing because both the populations and the government systems in place are very different. Take the Mormons, put them in Texas with their worker's comp laws, show me a 30% of payroll comp rate, and then maybe I'm on board. Otherwise, it's little more than a guess on his part.

"As far as I can tell, having read multiple histories of mankind covering many thousands of years, there is no such thing as a strictly honest governing system."

the same conclusion can be reached based on any quasi-religious teachings on the planet....politics can hardly be separated from the basic nature of Man.

I would say that tyranny is worse than corruption.
In Stalin's USSR, corruption was bad but without it life would have been much worse for people.

Much of the problem with today's government is that government's ability to destroy a business is far too great, and usual "solution" is for a business to get cozy with its regulators to gain profit, drive out competitors, and avoid destruction.
Government's power in this regard has become far stronger than any real system of accountability.

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Are the Latinos who were peopling his plant in Texas intrinsically dishonest or bad compared to the Mormons? No.

I would contend "Yes, they are." ...and I am not a Mormon, but I live in a salt Lake City suburb.

Corruption can occur anywhere, but there are statistics involved that really do depend on culture, family, and moral teachings. Why is Mexico such a corrupt hellhole if all the Mexicans are just like Americans ?

To contend there is no difference (diversity ?) is simply preposterous.
Not only are some cultures "different", but they are also better...yes, superior, in every measure that we might call "human civilization".

quote:

Originally posted by sjtill:
I would say that tyranny is worse than corruption.
In Stalin's USSR, corruption was bad but without it life would have been much worse for people.

Much of the problem with today's government is that government's ability to destroy a business is far too great, and usual "solution" is for a business to get cozy with its regulators to gain profit, drive out competitors, and avoid destruction.
Government's power in this regard has become far stronger than any real system of accountability.

It may be worse than that, doc.

Remember all the trouble Microsoft had decades ago? Anti trust, etc. Bill Gates had no lobby operation in DC, nobody taking care of him. Once Microsoft organized a proper abd robust lobbying operation, with the right staff, etc., those troubles went away.

Kind of like paying protection to one of the made men so the others will leave you alone.

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Kind of like paying protection to one of the made men so the others will leave you alone.

accurate observation

gives question to the inevitable rise of the occupation of knee busters and whatever ineffective legal system pursues coexistence rather than eliminating the private competition

The documentary on various underground Sicilian
gang influence vs the Italian.gov and .church somehow overlooking/ignoring such 'arrangements' over the generations go to the very heart of the question.

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Originally posted by signewt:

quote:

Kind of like paying protection to one of the made men so the others will leave you alone.

accurate observation

gives question to the inevitable rise of the occupation of knee busters and whatever ineffective legal system pursues coexistence rather than eliminating the private competition

The documentary on various underground Sicilian
gang influence vs the .gov and .church somehow overlooking/ignoring such 'arrangements' over the generations go to the very heart of the question.

It is similar in Saudi Arabia and maybe other contries of that culture. No business of any consequence gets very far without “partnering” with a prince for a piece of the action.

There are so many thumbs in the pie, there is no room for any peaches!