With the recent announcement by the BATFE in the Federal Register that they will move ahead with regulating pistol braces using the 4999 form, I decided to see if I could build an AR that can pass the checklist.

The final rule is supposed to go into effect in August of this year, and hopefully it is not as strict as the rule floated last year. But I think most likely they will implement it as-is, and let the courts sort it out.

Link to form: https://www.atf.gov/file/154866/download

Here is a picture of the AR I built:



Important parts are Phase 5 pistol tube with Tailhook Mod 1c, 11.5" barrel, non-permanent Surefire Closed Tine Warcomp, Magpul MBUIS Pro, Aimpoint Comp M5.

Now for the scoring:

SECTION I

Weighs at least 64 ounces (4 lbs): Should be around 6-7 lb without accessories

OAL between 12 and 26 inches:

OAL is 25 7/8" with an 11.5" barrel not including muzzle device.
OAL with a 10.5" barrel would be 24 7/8" not including muzzle device.
It is not clear if muzzle devices are to be included or not, but they are not when measuring barrel length for NFA.
Since they are not essential to the function of the pistol they should be considered a non-operational accessory.

SECTION II

Accessory Design: Not based on a known shoulder stock design - 0 points

Rear Surface Area:
Minimized Rear Surface lacking features to discourage shouldering - 1 point
Rear Sureface useful for shouldering the fiream - 2 points
This is a gray area - could go either way

Adjustability: Non-adjustable fixed design - 0 points

Stabilizing Support: Counterbalance Design that Folds creating Rear Contact Surface - 1 point

Total Score - 2 or 3 points so it passes at <4 points

SECTION III

Length of Pull with accessory in rear most "locked position": Less than 10.5 inches - 0 points

Attachment Method:
Attachment Method - Standard AR-type pistol buffer tube - 0 points
Attachment methods creates an unusable aim-point (slant)?
The Tailhook Mod 1c on MY arm held out very straight works with normal sights

Stabilizing Brace Modification/Configuration: None - 0 points

Peripheral Accessories
Presence of Rifle-type Back-up/ Flip-up Sights / Or no sights - 1 point
Pretty much screwed on this one, unless someone makes a "pistol" sight for an AR
A standard from and rear with a notch rear instead of a peep might take this down to zero points

Total - 2 points so it passes < 4 points


Key learnings:

Length of pull results in lots of points as it gets longer, keep it as short as possible.
Fins and cuffs with straps are evaluated based on effectiveness as a brace - most result in lots of points if they can't actually be used as a brace (won't fit around arm, don't have straps, etc.)
Elastic straps are BAD, if you have a fin or cuff with straps they need to be non-elastic. Really don't see the reason for this.
The Tailhook counterbalance design is actually the best stablizing brace design I have found - it actually works and is very easy to deploy.
Magnified optics with limited eye relief are a no no - stick with a red dot.
No support hand stops or fore grips at all.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Lefty Sig,

If I'm reading this right, the Sig MPX would get 2 points.

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:
If I'm reading this right, the Sig MPX would get 2 points.

I have a 2018 MPX-K with the Sig PDW telescoping cuff brace.

SECTION I - OK on weight and OAL

SECTION II

Adjustable Telescopting - 2 points
Cuff Partially wraps around arm - 1 point
Accessory Design - this is tricky because Sig sells the same basic design a stock rear end so it is based on a shoulder stock design and/or incorporates features of it. That's 1 or 2 more points so it fails the section at a total of 4.

SECTION III

LOP is just under 12.5" - 2 points
Adjustable PDW type guide rails - 1 points
Strap made of elastic material - 2 points

Total - fails at 5 points wihtout even getting to peripheral accessories.

AND this is in an unmodified AS PURCHASED configuration that came with a BATFE letter stating that the brace is not a stock and is legal.

I'm so far into the "Fuck the ATF" category at this point, I'm not even going to pretend online that I care. Send the robots...

How would this effect NFA items with braces

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:
I'm so far into the "Fuck the ATF" category at this point, I'm not even going to pretend online that I care. Send the robots...

Yeah, indeed. I recently built my first AR pistol. I have no idea what all that point crap means and don't much care. Eff 'em.

MPX-K with a Sig Pivoting Contour Brace:

SECTION II:

Design not based on known shoulder stock design - 0 points
Device incorporates features to prevent shouldering - 0 points
Because it can spin
Cuff Type that partially wraps around arm - 1 point

Total 1 point

SECTION III:

LOP is between 12.5 and 13.4 inches - 3 points
Inclusion of folding adapter extending length of pull - 1 point or not?
Not sure about this, folder is not like a LAW adapter that adds a lot of length.
Presence of Rifle-type Back-up / flip up / or no sights - 1 point

Fails at 4 points.

Sig needs to make these a bit shorter then they might be OK. Also need to come up with acceptable "pistol sights" because having no sights is no different than having normal AR sights.

quote:

Originally posted by DSgrouse:
How would this effect NFA items with braces

If it's an NFA SBR than it doesn't matter what you do with it, just use a stock. The only effect is on firearms classified/sold as handguns.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:

quote:

Originally posted by DSgrouse:
How would this effect NFA items with braces

If it's an NFA SBR than it doesn't matter what you do with it, just use a stock. The only effect is on firearms classified/sold as handguns.

I have an approved Form 1 for what it presently a pistol with a pistol brace. I have never affixed an actual stock, so I have not yet "made" a SBR, even though I have permission to.

The advantage of having a legal pistol vs a legal SBR, to me, has been the ability to travel with it without asking "Mother, May I?" This formula throws it into a different place.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DennisM,

quote:

Originally posted by DennisM:

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DSgrouse:
How would this effect NFA items with braces

If it's an NFA SBR than it doesn't matter what you do with it, just use a stock. The only effect is on firearms classified/sold as handguns.[/QUOTE

I have an approved Form 1 for what it presently a pistol with a pistol brace. I have never affixed an actual stock, so I have not yet "made" a SBR, even though I have permission to.

The advantage of having a legal pistol vs a legal SBR, to me, has been the ability to travel with it without asking "Mother, May I?" This formula throws it into a different place.

^^ Ah ok that's something I didn't think of. Hadn't heard of this possibility since I've never done a Form 1. I would have thought getting the Form 1 approved makes it an SBR as soon as you get the stamp. Assume then that you didn't engrave it either?

Dude…that law…what a load of unintelligible horse shit.

I was pleasantly surprised to learn that here in Puerto Rico SBRs and other Class 3 items don't matter because PR is a territory and aren't regulated by the BATF+E. They have a wall full of SBR ARs and as long as you have the proper firearm permits, you can buy one and walk out the door with it.


As for all the pistol brace nonsense the BATF+E lost all credibility when they tried to reclassify pistols into SBRs because of a letter ruling. Bunch. Of. Dicks. They can take their point system and shove it where their boyfriends put it.

quote:

Originally posted by Hildur:
I was pleasantly surprised to learn that here in Puerto Rico SBRs and other Class 3 items don't matter because PR is a territory and aren't regulated by the BATF+E. They have a wall full of SBR ARs and as long as you have the proper firearm permits, you can buy one and walk out the door with it.


As for all the pistol brace nonsense the BATF+E lost all credibility when they tried to reclassify pistols into SBRs because of a letter ruling. Bunch. Of. Dicks. They can take their point system and shove it where their boyfriends put it.

I've been pushing for independence as a state, but would probably settle for reclassification as a territory again for such freedoms regained.

LeftySig, would you consider editing the subject
line to "Complying with the BATF 4449 Pistol Brace Form" ?

This is gonna be more fun than a crossword puzzle or a Rubik's Cube.






I printed out the form and sharpened a #2 pencil; need help with Section II
Rear Surface Area

Line 1: "Device incorporates features to prevent use as a shouldering device".

What would that be?

A sharp point toward the shoulder? A repurposed cattle prod circuit and probes? A breakable glass vial, like say, a small glass Christmas tree ornament filled with deer hunter's skunk scent?

As Chongo said, I can't even begin to comprehend this unintelligible horseshit.

You get points for actually having sights on your gun? What dumb fuck wrote or conceptualized this garbage?

wait...

"Presence of Rifle-type Back-up/ Flip-up Sights / Or no sights - 1 point"

So if you have sights, OR if you have no sights??? What the fuck does this even mean?

quote:

Originally posted by Jester814:
I can't even begin to comprehend this unintelligible horseshit.

You get points for actually having sights on your gun? What dumb fuck wrote or conceptualized this garbage?

This dumb fuck is having a blast killing time with it.

I think they're saying handgun sights good, long gun sights bad.

I was have a Diamond Back AR pistol. I changed the spiky birdcage to a sig adapter for my suppressor. It has a kak blade support and a c-more red dot (pistol sight). Is that OK?

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
I think they're saying handgun sights good, long gun sights bad.

What the hell is a "handgun sight" vs a "long gun sight"? Who gets to decide? What are the criteria?

Aren't AK open top sights technically handgun sights? Just a rear notch with a front sight?

You KNOW the FIRST thing that's gonna come out of this is people designing and selling "pistol sights" for rifle caliber pistols and braces that give exactly a 10.5 inch LoP.

Also, a 10.5in barrel AR with flash hider comes in at over 26" with nothing but the buffer tube. All of this shit is intentionally made to turn people who were complying with the law into felons.

quote:

Originally posted by DennisM:

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DSgrouse:
How would this effect NFA items with braces

If it's an NFA SBR than it doesn't matter what you do with it, just use a stock. The only effect is on firearms classified/sold as handguns.[/QUOTE

I have an approved Form 1 for what it presently a pistol with a pistol brace. I have never affixed an actual stock, so I have not yet "made" a SBR, even though I have permission to.

The advantage of having a legal pistol vs a legal SBR, to me, has been the ability to travel with it without asking "Mother, May I?" This formula throws it into a different place.

I may be wrong on this, but once you have the stamp, it is a sbr, regardless of the stock you have on it.
case in point and why I asked. My GHM45 SBR


Prior to it being an SBR. The major difference is the forward grip and the tab blocking off the third latch on the tailhook stock.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:
I'm so far into the "Fuck the ATF" category at this point, I'm not even going to pretend online that I care. Send the robots...

Yeah, indeed. I recently built my first AR pistol. I have no idea what all that point crap means and don't much care. Eff 'em.

I'm with you but I've slid a bit further over the edge. I'm so fed up with trying to kiss the asses of this garbage that I've debated just installing regular adjustable stocks on my two AR pistols and calling it a day. These assholes seem intent on making me into a criminal so I might as well embrace and enjoy the distinction like all the other criminals do.