quote:

Originally posted by SevenPlusOne:
This. Subject resisted, subject was shot.

No.

I'm not OK with killing anyone "resisting". I am OK with killing someone trying to kill me...or you...or a cop...etc.... (I understand that that can be a fine line.)

One could clearly argue that this guy was trying to kill the cop at the time that he was shot.

Obviously, Officer Blood (appropriate name, no?) needs more training or a new line of work, but to charge her? No.

I agree that tasers need to go in the shitter. If someone needs to be tased, they need to be shot.

And I'll repeat my "all of this over a seatbelt ticket" comment. The idiot could have just kept his pie hole shut, and the officer(s) could have not set somebody off with nothing but a revenue-generating "violation". Or, simply hand the guy the ticket and say "You have a nice day, sir".

Once the grappling started, all bets are off, but it didn't need to get to that point from either side IMO.

ETA: No, I'm not a cop and never have been. Just a guy with some common sense.

quote:

she should have shot the fucker twice.

Anyone worth shooting is worth shooting again.

quote:

I'm not OK with killing anyone "resisting".

I don't always either, but do think that an obvious lethal threat will usually get people to behave. And I always like quoting Sam Shepard in Thunderheart.

Hope the bullet hole was worth it. I don't get some people, was that really the hill he wanted to die on?

I guess I don’t understand the law or a police officer’s limited immunity.

Having watched the video, it is pretty clear to me that she screwed up and that she intended to taze the perp rather than to shoot the perp. Now maybe she just doesn’t have the right stuff to be a cop because she grabbed the wrong tool under pressure. Maybe she just didn’t have the right training (stress inoculation). In either case, I’d assume her command / higher ups are at fault. Either they hired the wrong person (possibly for diversity reasons) or they didn’t give her enough or the right training (or both). Regardless of who made what mistake getting her there the department or the City is going to be paying (in other words, the taxpayer is going to be paying).

It is unfortunate that the dirtbag is going to get a settlement when the proximate cause of the whole mess is him being a stupid jerk. Sadly, that is the world we live in.

As for the officer though, I’d think that either she should have been given further training or sent down the road with the suggestion she seek employment other than law enforcement. (No way to know which is appropriate without more info than I saw in Donut’s video.). I wouldn’t think she should face criminal charges for what was obviously a simple stupid mistake. It is really easy to see that she intended to taze, meant to taze, and instead shot. I don’t see how anyone can see intent there. Yeah, it’s unfortunate, but that’s why Cities have insurance (or should have).

Female officers are like male officers. Good, bad and mediocre.
My last female partner was 5/1 and went about 105 fully kitted out. She was the only female (I know, I shacked up with her) that I actually feared. She would go down in the dirt with you in a second. She also would pound a knot on your head with a nightstick in the blink of an eye. SWAT operator, too. I attribute this to her hillbilly heritage, as she grew up tough. When drunks would challenger her, I often had my hands full keeping the drunks safe! She was fluent in profanity too. Even better than me.
As for our lady cop in the video, her error is grievous, but does not warrant a criminal charge.

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:
Taser would have been one option, but I'm fine with a gun there too. Dude was a fighting a cop...if you fight a cop, you should expect to be shot. Let's get the word out so people stop trying to fight cops.

Let's not tell cops they should "fight fair" when people hit them in the face and use a taser. That's just stupidness right there.

If was hitting a family member like that, I would have shot him for sure. Why should this cop be held to a higher standard?

Your statement about fighting fair was on my mind today after seeing the video. I think 1st, LE needs to have some training in dirty tactics. Instead if trying to pull the low life trash out of the truck, the Officer should have grabbed a hand full of fingers or thumb and bend to break if need be. Just like Steven Segal, make them comply with less violent response from the idiot. 2nd, as the truck was unlocked, both Officers should have tased the non compliant jerk from both sides. Double tap if you will. A nice little jingle to go along with this, Im a taser, hes a taser, together were just like a phaser, dont you wish we had a laser too? Now, as for a lady Officer being less capable, not so but, instead of shooting the bad guy, she/they need to be trained to kick like a pro. If she wouldnt land a punch from hell right in the middle of that guys mush, she damn sure could plant the top of her foot right in his face. Train them to kick a ball off the ground and off a post 2 1/2 feet off the ground. I want that ball kicked like a pro soccer player. Apply that same kick right in the jerks face. Broken teeth, nose and swelled eyes. Skip the pulling them off a downed Officer, kick them right through the face.

Officer fully off the ground.



Officer planted face first into asphalt.



Fist fully pulled back, first full force swing.
Fist, head, asphalt can be a deadly combination.



He was shot going for his second swing at officers head.
Irrelevant what he was pulled over for.
At this point the biggest mistake was her yelling taser.

The officer was definately in danger.

Looks and sounds to me like she put a round into the pavement during the draw.

So, tazing might have been more elegant, but I don't see how an officer can be faulted for shooting a perp during an obviously violent altercation.
Even if she intended to taze and accidentally used her pistol, I don't se how an officer can be required to not make any mistakes during an obviously violent altercation.
The perp created a violent fight, which is always inherently potentially deadly. So the officer was fully justified.
He got shot due to his own choices. That's as far as it goes.

Whether or not she was justified in shooting the BG doesn't factor into the fact that she thought she was going to taser him and shot him. That is beyond any simple mistake.

She needs to find a new line of work. Training issue or not I don't care there are simply some mistakes you don't come back from. This is one of them. There is no remedial training or anything.

Now the driver was an idiot and turned a simple ticket or even warning into felony crimes. He needs to do some serious jail time.

Her charges were dropped. The stupid asshole lived.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/cas...officer-who-shot-man

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:
Her charges were dropped. The stupid asshole lived.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/cas...officer-who-shot-man

Good. I love in the posted article, Shithead's attorneys said the officers escalated the situation and didn't use de-escalation techniques.........I wonder what video they watched. Cop was really patient with him. Shithead came out of the car swinging-first hay maker punch to side of cop"s head, then pile driving the officer into the roadway, and followed by an elbow to the head and neck. Hmm.....and when can we use deadly force? Oh yeah the first part of Garner v Tennessee: to prevent serious physical injury or death to ourselves or another. Judge called it like it should have been from the first. Another DA issuing charges to appease the BLM Mob.

The first video is so typical.....If only the know it all thug just would had provided his credentials, kept his mouth shut, got his ticket, and be on his way. But these idiots want to argue, fight, resist, and ultimately get hurt or killed, then it's the fault of the police? It seems like they never learn! As far as the female PO, I believe that after seeing her colleague get body slammed, she had no idea if he had a weapon, or what he was going to do next. I say give her an award. If she had a taser, the thug would most likely been tased.....
Personally, I have no sympathy for these fools that put themselves into these dangerous positions.

I tell you what, that shot took the fight right out of his ass.

That was enough situational deescalation right there for my taste.

This LEO got charged with a felony for mistakenly using her handgun instead of the Taser:

https://www.stltoday.com/news/...96-4bfc742628f1.html

Ladue officer charged with assault in 'reckless' shooting of shoplifting suspect at Schnucks

By Christine Byers and Joel Currier
St. Louis Post-Dispatch 18 hrs ago

CLAYTON • A Ladue police officer who said she accidentally shot a woman accused of shoplifting when she actually meant to use her Taser has been charged with second-degree assault.

Julia Crews, a Ladue police officer, was charged with second-degree assault after shooting an alleged shoplifting suspect outside a Schnucks store. Her attorney said she had meant to use her Taser but drew her gun instead.

St. Louis County Prosecutor Wesley Bell charged Julia Crews, 37, with the felony count on Wednesday. Crews, who has been a Ladue police officer for 13 years, faces up to seven years in prison.

Her bail was set at $20,000. She was booked Wednesday afternoon, posted 10 percent of the bail and was released.

Bell said at a news conference Wednesday afternoon that his office, St. Louis County police investigators, and a committee of former prosecutors, defense attorneys and judges had all agreed the charges were appropriate. State law defines second-degree assault as recklessly causing serious physical injury or recklessly causing physical injury with a firearm.

"It is our position that the officer's actions were reckless," Bell said.

The officer's attorney, Travis Noble, told the Post-Dispatch Monday that his client thought she had pulled her Taser, but had actually drawn her weapon and fired it at the 33-year-old woman on April 23 on the parking lot at Ladue Crossing Shopping Center.

The woman, identified by family members as Ashley Hall, is expected to survive her wounds but remains hospitalized. She has not been charged with a crime, though authorities said the investigation was continuing.

Bell agreed with Noble's account that Crews had warned she would use her Taser, and said Hall continued to run. But he said Hall did not pose a threat to Crews.

"In this case, the officer's safety was never in question," Bell said.

Bell said his office had reviewed surveillance video in the case but that it would not be made public yet. He said evidence would be released "at the appropriate time."

The officer's attorney said he met with prosecutors and told them that they were "overcharging" his client and that when a jury finds that there is not enough evidence to convict Crews on that charge, the "whole city is going to burn down" and it is going to be on them for setting the wrong expectations.

"This was in no way intentional," Noble said. "If she were here right now, she would tell you she never meant to shoot her and that she was never in fear for her life. This was an accident. A very tragic accident."

'Fighting for her life'

Family members said they were happy with the charge. Hall's mother tearfully addressed reporters after the announcement.

I am praying for (Crews), and I am praying for my daughter right now," Karen Carter said.

Hall's father, Robert Hall Sr., said Wednesday that she was "fighting for her life" after five surgical procedures.

"We are not out here saying 'Oh, yeah, let's get her,'" Robert Hall said. "No, we just want (Ashley Hall) to get well."

Ashley Hall's mother echoed that statement.

"I'm not angry," Carter said. "I have to have mercy in my heart … and right now I need everyone to pray for my daughter."

Crews shot Hall after being called to a report of shoplifting at the Schnucks grocery at 8867 Ladue Road, near Interstate 170.

Hall was one of two women accused by the store of pushing at least one grocery cart of items they did not pay for past a self-checkout area. Sources familiar with the incident say the merchandise included hundreds of dollars worth of meat and fish.

Hall's relatives dispute that she stole anything and say she left the store with only balloons she had bought for her mother's birthday.

When Schnucks workers stopped the women at the door, one of the women abandoned her cart and ran out of the store, according to the grocer. Police are still searching for that woman and released a surveillance image of her.

The grocer said the second woman, holding balloons she had paid for, grabbed some items that hadn't been paid for from a cart. After a brief struggle with one of the workers, she ran out of the store, too, according to Schnucks.

Ladue police were called about 3 p.m.

When Schnucks workers stopped the women at the door, one of the women abandoned her cart and ran out of the store, according to the grocer. Police are still searching for that woman and released a surveillance image of her.

The grocer said the second woman, holding balloons she had paid for, grabbed some items that hadn't been paid for from a cart. After a brief struggle with one of the workers, she ran out of the store, too, according to Schnucks.

Ladue police were called about 3 p.m.

Authorities said Hall was shot once, with an entrance and exit wound, but the family disputes that. They believe she was shot twice, once in the abdomen and once in the sternum.

She was on life support Wednesday, family members said. At least two of her ribs are broken, her lungs were collapsed, part of her small intestine had to be removed, and doctors are keeping her sedated so she hasn't been able to communicate, her father said.

She had a handcuff on one wrist when she was shot, the family says.

She is the mother of five children ranging in age from 2 to 17, family said, and will soon be a grandmother. Her mother and father are caring for her children.

Investigation of case
Bell's decision to handle the case against Crews is a departure from the policy he promised during his campaign, which was to have special prosecutors handle all police shooting cases. But he said Tuesday that hiring a special prosecutor in each case would be "an undue burden on taxpayers."

Instead, Bell said he hopes to hire a prosecutor for an independent unit that will investigate officer-involved shootings as well as allegations of wrongful convictions. The unit would report only to him and would otherwise be "walled off" from his office, he said.

The committee of former court officials that reviewed the Ladue case would also review future cases and recommend whether to file charges. The three current members of the committee are Lisa Van Amburg, former St. Louis County Circuit Court judge; Felicia Ezell-Gillespie, a judge in several municipal courts in the county; and Jack Duepner, municipal judge and former St. Louis County assistant prosecuting attorney.

Bell said he had appointed the members of the external review committee but would be open to suggestions from the public. Bell said he expects the committee to grow to include five members, all volunteers.

William K. Holland of Holland Injury Law said Hall's family was confident Bell would investigate properly, though they dispute several elements of the police narrative.

"All we know for sure is that she paid for two balloons that she bought for her mother's birthday and was shot moments later," Holland said. "Everything else we will have to figure out from the video and our investigation."

In 2017, Crews was celebrated for her role in aiding a woman who had been shot nine times by her estranged husband on a different Schnucks parking lot in Ladue.

Crews was put on leave after last week's shooting.

"I don't think my client will ever want to go back to police work," her attorney said.

Ladue has 26 commissioned officers in the town of about 8,600. The city turned the shooting over to St. Louis County Police for an independent investigation, and cooperated fully with the probe, the city said in a statement.

"We are heartbroken over the course of events in the last week," Mayor Nancy Spewak said in a statement. "We take great pride in our community policing efforts, and we strive to treat every member of the public with respect and integrity, despite the natural conflicts that occur when police are called to aid a potential criminal situation."

"We are committed to doing everything in our power to learn from this and to minimize the potential of incidents like this in the future," the statement continued. "We are grateful the person involved in this matter is on her way to recovery. I want to offer my continued support to her family and to all of the men and women of the Ladue Police Department. This has been a difficult time for all of us."

The last time the suburban St. Louis department had an officer-involved shooting was in 1976, when an officer shot a suspected burglar in the leg as he ran away from a home police say he had broken into.

The Ladue case parallels a recent Kansas case in which a Lawrence officer was charged for shooting a man during a traffic stop. The officer insisted she meant to reach for her stun gun, according to the Kansas City Star newspaper. A judge dismissed her case last month, finding a lack of probable cause that the officer acted recklessly.


Nassim Benchaabane of the Post-Dispatch contributed to this report.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Female officers are like male officers. Good, bad and mediocre.
My last female partner was 5/1 and went about 105 fully kitted out. She was the only female (I know, I shacked up with her) that I actually feared. She would go down in the dirt with you in a second. She also would pound a knot on your head with a nightstick in the blink of an eye. SWAT operator, too. I attribute this to her hillbilly heritage, as she grew up tough. When drunks would challenger her, I often had my hands full keeping the drunks safe! She was fluent in profanity too. Even better than me.
As for our lady cop in the video, her error is grievous, but does not warrant a criminal charge.

Amen! I knew two female officers with very similar heritage and attitudes. I also was crazy enough to date them too. While I wasn't afraid of them, I was very respectful and walked very carefully if they were in a "mood" (which was not very often). By chance your female officer wouldn't have been named Vicki or Pam? . Yes Pam and Vicki, it has been over 20 years but I still think nice thoughts about both of you.

quote:

Originally posted by David Lee:

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:
Taser would have been one option, but I'm fine with a gun there too. Dude was a fighting a cop...if you fight a cop, you should expect to be shot. Let's get the word out so people stop trying to fight cops.

Let's not tell cops they should "fight fair" when people hit them in the face and use a taser. That's just stupidness right there.

If was hitting a family member like that, I would have shot him for sure. Why should this cop be held to a higher standard?

Your statement about fighting fair was on my mind today after seeing the video. I think 1st, LE needs to have some training in dirty tactics. Instead if trying to pull the low life trash out of the truck, the Officer should have grabbed a hand full of fingers or thumb and bend to break if need be. Just like Steven Segal, make them comply with less violent response from the idiot. 2nd, as the truck was unlocked, both Officers should have tased the non compliant jerk from both sides. Double tap if you will. A nice little jingle to go along with this, Im a taser, hes a taser, together were just like a phaser, dont you wish we had a laser too? Now, as for a lady Officer being less capable, not so but, instead of shooting the bad guy, she/they need to be trained to kick like a pro. If she wouldnt land a punch from hell right in the middle of that guys mush, she damn sure could plant the top of her foot right in his face. Train them to kick a ball off the ground and off a post 2 1/2 feet off the ground. I want that ball kicked like a pro soccer player. Apply that same kick right in the jerks face. Broken teeth, nose and swelled eyes. Skip the pulling them off a downed Officer, kick them right through the face.

Dirty fighting???? Chiefs, Mayors, City Managers, City Attorneys, and CALEA Managers will run screaming out of the room at the thought. No, most departments use PPCT Pressure Point Control Tactics which.......aren't that great. Last year I was going to go to a Krav Maga LEO Instructor class on my own time and dime (I do this a lot, this is my idea of a vacation) but I needed a letter from my department. My captain whole heartedly endorsed it but the Chief refused to give it.....because "we already have a PPCT instructor, we don't need another Defensive Tactics Instructor." So cancel that idea. This year I am going to try and go to a Gracie Survival Tactics LEO Instructor Course, they don't require a letter from the department.

Here is a good video on various ways to get someone out of a vehicle:

quote:

Originally posted by copaup:
One COULD argue that the suspect was on top of the officer, striking him, and in an active roadway and that she feared that her partner was in danger of being severely injured or killed. Unfortunately, she clearly yells "TASER" before firing the shot. She wasn't making a conscious decision to use deadly force based on what she perceived as a lethal threat. She went for the TASER, pulled the pistol instead, and then pulled the trigger. It's a mistake, but its a mistake that could have ended a life. It may well have ended a career.

I wouldn't expect criminal charges in a situation like this unless someone was killed. It's an accident, not an intentional act.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Whether or not the shooting is justified doesn't negate the fact that he was accidentally shot. That's settlement material right there.

These fine gentlemen are correct, in my opinion (with 12 years in myself plus 5 as a firearms and less lethal instructor).

It was a mistake, but some mistakes should not happen. Even if she didn't resign she should have been fired.

Charges? I'll not comment on that one...

quote:

Instead, Bell said he hopes to hire a prosecutor for an independent unit that will investigate officer-involved shootings as well as allegations of wrongful convictions. The unit would report only to him and would otherwise be "walled off" from his office, he said.

The word is Robert Steele is suppose to get that job....Steele is a rabidly anti-police defense attorney for 24 years. Steele was hired by Kim Gardner St. Louis City PA and was put in charge of the Jason Stockley trial over more experienced prosecutors and was by accounts.....horrible as a prosecutor which is much different than being a defense attorney.

In addeum to the article Sigmund posted above, here is a follow up statement from Crewes' attorney Travis Noble:

The officer's attorney said he met with prosecutors and told them that they were "overcharging" his client and that when a jury finds that there is not enough evidence to convict Crews on that charge, the "whole city is going to burn down" and it is going to be on them for setting the wrong expectations.