Open to any advice or ideas, but here's the short of it:

I'm wanting to buy a stack or half stack for my son's B-day gift. For the here and now, we're going to be driving it with a Fender 100w 4ohm output amp.

However, down the road we may want to upgrade the head unit to more power, so I understand we want more watts than what we have available in the current amp.

Questions:

Does hooking up a cab from the pre-out on the existing amp bypass the speakers on the amp and go directly to the cab, or does it play all speakers on the amp and the cab?

On matching ohms, do we need to match ohms with the amp and the cab exactly, or is it okay to go up with the cab? (for example: 4ohm amp to an 8ohm cab)

If we want to maintain the sound of the current amp, do we need to match speakers? (for example: fender cab for fender amp)

If it matters, he's playing a MIM Fender Telecaster and an ESP Iron Cross for most of his work. One Crybaby, one footswitch, and one effects pedal (very rarely used). Typical gigs are outdoor pavilion type events and indoor halls. Mics on one PA, drums and rhythm are through a separate PA, and the lead (his) and the bass (buddy's) running on their own.

Thanks in advance.

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:


Questions:

Does hooking up a cab from the pre-out on the existing amp bypass the speakers on the amp and go directly to the cab, or does it play all speakers on the amp and the cab?

>>My understanding is that the "Pre-OUT" is simply a tap out to the house mixing board from the preamp. Mine has no effect on the internal speakers, but allows a hook into the house sound reinforcement system.

On matching ohms, do we need to match ohms with the amp and the cab exactly, or is it okay to go up with the cab? (for example: 4ohm amp to an 8ohm cab)

>>Generally, one can go up in resistance with the loss of some power, but going down is not advised as it may stress the output section of the amplifier. (Long time since I even thought about this so take it with a grain of salt.)

If we want to maintain the sound of the current amp, do we need to match speakers? (for example: fender cab for fender amp)

>>Don't assume that Fender speakers are all the same. They're a huge company and while they probably make an effort to maintain some control over their components and thus the sound produced, there will be variations in the same products. Try some different manufacturers' cabinets and find one that you like.

Good luck. Make certain they protect their hearing. Personal experience!

RMD

Answers above from rmd are correct.

My advice is to start looking into a PA system. It's not the best idea for everybody in the band to try to have enough amp for the venue. Use the amp he likes the sound of, and mic it to play through the PA. Most venues have a house PA, and if not this is where the focus should be. Definitely better to have a semi-quiet stage and the major sound going out into the crowd through the PA speakers. Better for sound quality and better for the band's hearing.

You have a multifaceted question here and I will help to answer as best as I can.

First off it is good to know which fender amp you have. Is it a tube amp or a solid-state amp. 100w tube amp is generally louder than a 100w solid-state amp. And most professional musicians use 30-50watt tube amps that are miked. Watts is not exactly equal to loudness. Going from 100w to 200w will only gain you 3dB sonic output, which is perceptively not much. A guitar amp is highly ineffective at projecting sound to anyone else other than the guitar player, especially outside.



Does hooking up a cab from the pre-out on the existing amp bypass the speakers on the amp and go directly to the cab, or does it play all speakers on the amp and the cab?

That jack is designed to drive guitar effect pedals that loop back into the amp. It is the preamplifier output of the amp and one half of what is called the effects loop. It can power a speaker at low volumes, but is very not recommended as the impedance of the speaker is very different from what the preamplifier circuit is needing to see to operate properly.



On matching ohms, do we need to match ohms with the amp and the cab exactly, or is it okay to go up with the cab? (for example: 4ohm amp to an 8ohm cab)

Can't answer unless I know if solid-state or tube amplifier.



If we want to maintain the sound of the current amp, do we need to match speakers? (for example: fender cab for fender amp)

If you want to maintain the sound of the amp, use the amp. There is no need to stay with any brand at all. Each speaker and cabinet choice will color the tone in different ways and could either help or hinder. Try in stores a lot before buying.

Hope this helps,

Fish

To put my own spin on what everyone else already said:

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:
I'm wanting to buy a stack or half stack for my son's B-day gift. For the here and now, we're going to be driving it with a Fender 100w 4ohm output amp.

Just about everyone that I know that still plays out sold their stacks for 1x12 combos or 2x12 combos or head/212cab.

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:
However, down the road we may want to upgrade the head unit to more power, so I understand we want more watts than what we have available in the current amp.

100W is plenty loud, too loud without a master volume control. As asked before is it solid state or tube?

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:
Does hooking up a cab from the pre-out on the existing amp bypass the speakers on the amp and go directly to the cab, or does it play all speakers on the amp and the cab?

You can't hook a cabinet to the pre-out as that is the output to the tone shaping stage and there isn't enough power to push a cabinet.

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:
On matching ohms, do we need to match ohms with the amp and the cab exactly, or is it okay to go up with the cab? (for example: 4ohm amp to an 8ohm cab)

You have to match for best performance. 4ohm output to an 8ohm speaker will give lower output. 8ohm output to a 4ohm speaker can ruin your output tubes and/or transformer on a tube amp. Of course 2 8ohm cabs will show 4ohms to the amp.

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:
If we want to maintain the sound of the current amp, do we need to match speakers? (for example: fender cab for fender amp)

This is another tone chaser rabbit hole. Check out the offering by Eminence. They have speaker demos for all their stuff. The speaker can make a huge difference. From the feel I get from your post, he's not really a tone chaser, he just likes loud. Is that accurate?

Just to echo - most players now mic a smaller amp/cabinet combo. In a really big arena even 100W into a full stack won't be loud enough, and you will be using the PA system. In a small club, 100W will make the audience's ears bleed, so they use a smaller amp and mic it. In other words, in almost every context I see guitar players playing into a smaller amp/speaker combo and mic-ing it into the PA.

You will be better off matching impedance. But you can mix and match brands to your heart's content.

Thanks all, for the answers and advice.

To answer some of the questions: Solid State Fender 100W FM 212R

On the pre-out: Yeah, I'm a dumb ass. I don't hook it up, I just buy stuff, carry stuff, and watch them play.

From what I'm reading:

1. Match ohms when possible, and never go down in ohms from the amp to the stack.

2. It sounds like a decent quality tube amp might be a better investment than more speakers.

3. The quality of PA I would need is beyond the scope of "birthday present" and needs to be a band investment. (I won't get into this here, but suffice it to say I'm all about getting my kids what they need to advance - buying other gear that the other band members want to plug into and thrash for free . . . not so much.)

In regards to #2, maybe, maybe not. I love and advocate for good tube amps, but I also wouldn't say not to get a decent speaker cabinet now if he knows he wants to run a head/cab setup instead of a combo. Even in that case, most good tube combo amps have a speaker out to drive a cab, and here's the cool part, different cabs and speakers loaded into the those cabs all add different things to the overall sound.

So getting a decent cabinet to pair with what he has now isn't necessarily a bad option. I've got two 4x12's that I run with a Hughes & Kettner 100 watt tube head. One is a Randall, and the other a Soldano. Huge cost difference between the two, but huge difference in sound also. The Soldano handles all the clarity and is most of the sound from the mid-range up and the Randall is a thumper that booms where the Soldano can't. It's overkill, but it's my example.

All that said, if you got him a Vox AC30, he wouldn't be lacking for much at all if he's playing through a Fender Frontman.

Depends on what he plays, a little. Any METAL most brutal, most beautiful? 100-120 watts is fiiiine.

Peavey 5150 and its descendants(6505 family and now fender EVH) sound great even turned down.

I'm torn though because I had a JSX(120 watt 2X12)that was soooo good. Sold it and now I know the peavey owners are offshoring shitbags, so I would have to get an EVH to replace it.

I don't even like Van Halen, but his amps are awesome.

I hate british amps though and very much into modern metal. Take that for what it's worth.

Short of going bonkers and going Mesa/Soldano/similar it's a killer metal/heavy rock setup.

Just throwing a different perspective and opinion out there.

Ok, I see they run their own sound. Any chance they could hire that job out? I've never played a place that didn't have a house PA so I don't know much about it but there is one guy in my town that follows the bands around and sets up his portable PA for a small fee.

quote:

Originally posted by DoctorSolo:
Depends on what he plays, a little. Any METAL most brutal, most beautiful? 100-120 watts is fiiiine.

Peavey 5150 and its descendants(6505 family and now fender EVH) sound great even turned down.

I'm torn though because I had a JSX(120 watt 2X12)that was soooo good. Sold it and now I know the peavey owners are offshoring shitbags, so I would have to get an EVH to replace it.

I don't even like Van Halen, but his amps are awesome.

I hate british amps though and very much into modern metal. Take that for what it's worth.

Short of going bonkers and going Mesa/Soldano/similar it's a killer metal/heavy rock setup.

Just throwing a different perspective and opinion out there.

Yeah, what genre does he play?

I am also a metal head but have in the past two years begun my tone chasing quest. I honestly tried single coils for the first time and got into pedals. I searched for the right amp and kept coming back to Marshall. I'm just a Marshall guy. A Marshall DSL100H or DHL40C (what I own) is their best offering.

For something more modern, check out the Blackstar amps. Series One is their flagship but pricey. Blackstar HT is very good and modern sounding.

quote:

Yeah, what genre does he play?

Mark, he likes it all.

His favorites - in no order - are Johnny Cash, Tool, Foo Fighters, Seven Mary Three, Metallica, and Cadillac Three.

He has a Blackstar HT-5R that we bought used, but it's kinda janky. I've been eyeing that DHL40C. I think that would cover most of what he plays, and sound really sweet mic'd up.

I know the FM212 catches a ton of hate, but it's been a trooper for us for the last year of gigging. His talent is just now getting to where he could use a little better gear, but unfortunately dad doesn't know enough about it to make smart choices without asking.

Mark - to your other question - we're right on the cusp of playing house sound instead of our own cruddy PA system. We played a couple shows last year, including opening for Eric Lee Beddingfield at our hometown street show, that had sound and stage provided. It was by far the best they've ever sounded.

Thanks again everyone who replied.

I don't know what your budget is and that drives so much advice. If you told me you had 3k to spend, buy a Marshall Half Stack. I am assuming you are on a stricter budget since this is a birthday gift. There is a company here is North Carolina called Mojotone that builds cabinets with the same hardware as Marshall at a fraction of the price. You can custom build your cabinet or put the parts you want together and have them put it together and ship it to you. I have a buddy that uses their cabinets and they sound great.

www.mojotone.com

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:
Mark, he likes it all.

His favorites - in no order - are Johnny Cash, Tool, Foo Fighters, Seven Mary Three, Metallica, and Cadillac Three.

Versatility may be in order then. Of course I used to go for every option and then only use one or two sounds. But boy, could I get 1000 sounds that I never used.

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:
He has a Blackstar HT-5R that we bought used, but it's kinda janky.

Meh, no headroom at all.

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:
I've been eyeing that DHL40C. I think that would cover most of what he plays, and sound really sweet mic'd up.

I tried everything (well, everything under $3000 for 18watts) and that's the amp I chose. I can heartily recommend it. It's got 4 different channels (footswitchable between two) but of course, I only use one of them (Clean cranked up a bit to 7).

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:
I know the FM212 catches a ton of hate, but it's been a trooper for us for the last year of gigging. His talent is just now getting to where he could use a little better gear, but unfortunately dad doesn't know enough about it to make smart choices without asking.

I was completely solid state from 1995 until I bought this Marshall DSL40C last year. No hate. It's different, not worse.

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:
Mark - to your other question - we're right on the cusp of playing house sound instead of our own cruddy PA system. We played a couple shows last year, including opening for Eric Lee Beddingfield at our hometown street show, that had sound and stage provided. It was by far the best they've ever sounded.

Yeah, low stage volume with miced amps is the way to go. All the cool kids are doing it.

The bigger Fender Mustang amps should not be overlooked. About a dozen factory presets are surprisingly good sounding (the classic Fender models) and a few of the major custom preset contributors really nail them.