Will E85 harm a non E85 vehicle?

June 11, 2017, 06:04 AM

MikeNH

quote:
Originally posted by jimmy123x:
quote:
Originally posted by arfmel:
Premium (high octane) gas can have ethanol in it. Ethanol increases octane. There's a good possibility that regular unleaded will have the same amount of ethanol as premium does.

That is true, but e85 is lower octane, so the 93 bumps it up a bit.

All octanes use ethanol and E85 is actually much higher- like 105 octane or so. This is why GM publishes two horsepower/torque figures- on on 87 and the other on E85.

June 11, 2017, 06:34 AM

Brett B

quote:
Originally posted by Gator73:
I checked the E85 website and under their FAQ's it says any car 2001 or newer is ok to run on E85.

Their website is wrong. It is most certainly not ok to run E85 in "any car 2001 or newer" unless it is a Flex Fuel vehicle. In addition to the degraded fuel lines already mentioned E85 will cause a non-Flex Fuel car to run very lean. Flex Fuel cars for E85 have much bigger fuel injectors, an E85 fuel sensor, and alternate fuel maps in the ECU. E85 requires a much larger amount of fuel be injected to maintain the ideal air/fuel ratio and a non-Flex fuel car does not have the ability to do this with E85.

June 11, 2017, 09:58 AM

tatortodd

quote:
Originally posted by Alpine79830:
Excellent information Sir, I was a pup technician in the late 70s when GM started pumping out bulletins on MTBE and changing out carb accelerator plungers because of "high aromatic fuels". Was this the beginning...?

I wasn't in the oil & gas business until the early 90s, but this EPA web page states it began being used in 1979 when lead was removed.

Throughout the 90s, MTBE and Ethanol were the two primary oxygenates with MTBE being more prevalent since it was made at refineries and blended with gasoline at the refinery (ethanol isn't transported by pipeline so it's blended at the loading rack into the tanker that delivers gasoline to gas stations). Check out Pages 16 - 20 of this 1998 California Air Resource Board Overview of Oxygenates in Gasoline. Due to its propensity to contaminate ground water, it was phased out first by California plus a few other states then the federal gov't. Here is a pretty good history of MTBE and oxygenate regulations.

June 11, 2017, 10:16 AM

tatortodd

quote:
Originally posted by Brett B:
quote:
Originally posted by Gator73:
I checked the E85 website and under their FAQ's it says any car 2001 or newer is ok to run on E85.

Their website is wrong. It is most certainly not ok to run E85 in "any car 2001 or newer" unless it is a Flex Fuel vehicle. In addition to the degraded fuel lines already mentioned E85 will cause a non-Flex Fuel car to run very lean. Flex Fuel cars for E85 have much bigger fuel injectors, an E85 fuel sensor, and alternate fuel maps in the ECU. E85 requires a much larger amount of fuel be injected to maintain the ideal air/fuel ratio and a non-Flex fuel car does not have the ability to do this with E85.

Gator73, can you be specific about the actual "E85 website?" I'd like to check it out to see if it's a propaganda site or legit.

quote:
Originally posted by Gator73:
So if I can't locate non-ethanol gas nearby would it make a difference if I fill up with premium unleaded vs regular unleaded?

Were you able to siphon from your wife's car to your e85 car? Many vehicles have anti-siphon valves between the filler cap and the tank. My old Silverado did which I found out in the aftermath of a hurricane when my Silverado had 27 gallons in its tank and my generator was burning 10 gallons a day.

The link I posted on page 1 shows 753 ethanol free gas stations in Florida. If one isn't nearby, I'd just use 87 octane from a Top Tier brand of gasoline.

June 11, 2017, 10:55 AM

Gator73

Well, unfortunately there must be an anti-siphon mechanism since I ran the siphon tube about 2 1/2 feet in before it stopped and it just sucked air. It wasn't wet when I pulled it out.
There were several sites I've seen saying it won't harm vehicles 2001 or newer...probably propaganda sites. Here's one:
https://getethanol.com/faq/

I'm going to just have her drive and stop to top off the tank every day/every other day with 93 octane then maybe add some fuel system/injector cleaner of some sort??

Damn.

June 11, 2017, 10:57 AM

Gator73

Well, re-reading some comments I'm still confused on which octane to use as she drives.

Any suggestions on whether any sort of fuel cleaner should be used and if so, which?

Thanks.

June 11, 2017, 11:17 AM

tatortodd

quote:
Originally posted by Gator73:
There were several sites I've seen saying it won't harm vehicles 2001 or newer...probably propaganda sites. Here's one:
https://getethanol.com/faq/

That is definitely a propaganda site. It's owned by Growth Energy who is a political action committee for ethanol production plants as well as other farmer groups. The FAQ page is full of bald faced lies, and the only thing I'd trust is the link to find e15 and e85 gas stations.

quote:
Originally posted by Gator73:
I'm going to just have her drive and stop to top off the tank every day/every other day with 93 octane then maybe add some fuel system/injector cleaner of some sort??

You do not need to fill-up with 93 octane UNLESS the owner's manual specifically requires it. If it doesn't, just use 87 octane from a Top Tier brand.

I'd advise against a fuel system cleaner for several reasons:

You're putting more unknown solvents into your vehicle

I have a Nissan and its owners manually specifically recommends against them.

If you're burning a Top Tier brand of gasoline you're getting more detergent than the federal minimum (additives are added at the loading rack which is the only differentiator in the fungible gasoline) and studies have shown 19 times fewer carbon deposits on injectors, intake valves, and in the combustion chamber when compared to regular gasoline.

On YouTube, ChrisFix has a bunch of videos where he tests several fuel system cleaners and has before and after videos of the cylinder head and sometime the intake valves. None do much except separate you from your money.

June 11, 2017, 11:25 AM

egregore

Some Toyota models have access to the fuel pump or gauge sender through the floor under the seat. Then you can siphon the fuel. Otherwise, run the tank low and fill it up with proper fuel and be done with it. Whatever E85 is left will be progressively diluted each time you fill the tank and eventually disappear.

June 11, 2017, 11:25 AM

the_sandman_454

quote:
Originally posted by MikeNH:
All octanes use ethanol and E85 is actually much higher- like 105 octane or so. This is why GM publishes two horsepower/torque figures- on on 87 and the other on E85.

Unlike the grades of gasoline being distinguished by octane numbers, the '85' in E85 doesn't mean the octane rating, it means that's the maximum concentration of ethanol in the blend. It has a significantly higher octane rating than even premium gasoline.

My flex fuel capable Fusion is also rated at higher horsepower on E85 than on gasoline. Fuel consumption is much higher than with regular gasoline also though, even when not driving it to take advantage of the extra power.

I would get that E85 out of the car ASAP. I would also recommend offering the person who keeps filling the car with that crap an education in why that's a bad idea. It doesn't matter that it's cheaper per gallon than 87 octane regular when it ruins your vehicle.

June 11, 2017, 11:32 AM

Gator73

Gotcha.
I'm guessing there are a lot of people that use E85 just not knowing any better. Yes, it is marked as such however, there aren't any warnings whatsoever to not use it unless your vehicle is built to do so.
What a fricken' mess. No problems so far - starts, runs, accelerates, etc. as normal. Just hoping no long term repairs will be needed.

June 11, 2017, 11:39 AM

tatortodd

quote:
Originally posted by Gator73:
Gotcha.
I'm guessing there are a lot of people that use E85 just not knowing any better. Yes, it is marked as such however, there aren't any warnings whatsoever to not use it unless your vehicle is built to do so.
What a fricken' mess. No problems so far - starts, runs, accelerates, etc. as normal. Just hoping no long term repairs will be needed.

I was curious so I did a little digging on Toyota's website and found two docs that may be useful:

Owner's manual. Page 181-182 recommends use of 87 octane, a maximum of e10, and only using quality gasoline (Top Tier gas standards were developed in '04 so it won't say use Top Tier, but that is likely what it means).

Scheduled Maintenance Guide

June 11, 2017, 11:48 AM

Balzé Halzé

quote:
Originally posted by the_sandman_454:
quote:
Originally posted by MikeNH:
All octanes use ethanol and E85 is actually much higher- like 105 octane or so. This is why GM publishes two horsepower/torque figures- on on 87 and the other on E85.

Unlike the grades of gasoline being distinguished by octane numbers, the '85' in E85 doesn't mean the octane rating, it means that's the maximum concentration of ethanol in the blend. It has a significantly higher octane rating than even premium gasoline.

My flex fuel capable Fusion is also rated at higher horsepower on E85 than on gasoline. Fuel consumption is much higher than with regular gasoline also though, even when not driving it to take advantage of the extra power.

I would get that E85 out of the car ASAP. I would also recommend offering the person who keeps filling the car with that crap an education in why that's a bad idea. It doesn't matter that it's cheaper per gallon than 87 octane regular when it ruins your vehicle.

Higher Octane does not by itself mean higher horsepower. In fact it's quite the opposite. Especially if you're using E85 in a vehicle designed for regular gas.

June 11, 2017, 11:49 AM

Zecpull

quote:
Originally posted by jimmy123x:
quote:
Originally posted by egregore:
[QUOTE]My other thought is just drive and stop daily to fill with regular gas during the week.

One tank of the E85 - or even, apparently, two - isn't going to harm anything. Just don't make a habit o

Yes it can. A car from 2002 it will eat up fuel lines and seals and stuff like that in the fuel system that were never ever made for 85% alcohol(ethanol)......

OP- try to water it down with 93 octane gasoline.

Jimmy.. You are Wrong.. any car made since 2001 has to have fuel lines that are compatible with Ethanol.. E15 which is mandated in all states has Ethanol. and 93 oct does not have less Ethanol.. Octain is no a problem with E85 is is much higher than gas. if he wants to dilute it he needs Recreational gas with 0 Ethanol.

June 11, 2017, 11:49 AM

springnr

Is your car a flex fuel vehicle?

I use ethanol-free gas in my old motorcycle and small gas engines, some of these sites may only sell gas for marine/small engine use.
Active map of stations that sell "pure gasoline"

June 11, 2017, 12:15 PM

tatortodd

quote:
Originally posted by Zecpull:
quote:
Originally posted by jimmy123x:
quote:
Originally posted by egregore:
[QUOTE]My other thought is just drive and stop daily to fill with regular gas during the week.

One tank of the E85 - or even, apparently, two - isn't going to harm anything. Just don't make a habit o

Yes it can. A car from 2002 it will eat up fuel lines and seals and stuff like that in the fuel system that were never ever made for 85% alcohol(ethanol)......

OP- try to water it down with 93 octane gasoline.

Jimmy.. You are Wrong.. any car ma
de since 2001 has to have fuel lines that are compatible with Ethanol.. E15 which is mandated in all states has Ethanol. and 93 oct does not have less Ethanol.. Octain is no a problem with E85 is is much higher than gas. if he wants to dilute it he needs Recreational gas with 0 Ethanol.

You are only 50% correct so let's analyze point by point:

In June 2011, the EPA under the 0bama administration ignored the both the automotive manufacturers and the oil & gas companies and magically declared all vehicles after 2001 to be e15 compatible. Manufacturers had only rated them e10 compatible.

e15 is not mandated anywhere, and is only available at 875 stations total in 29 states.

you are correct that 87 octane and 91/93 octane contain the exact same percentage of ethanol

you are correct that a gasoline containing 0% ethanol will faster dilute the OP's vehicle than a gasoline containing e10 (10% ethanol).