I have had several friends in engineering subsequently go to law school and end up due to their engineering knowledge in patents.
That is one area where your background would be very useful.

I almost went back (when a business needed lawyers versed in engineering/production areas) but the funding stopped due to the economy. I couldn't have afforded it otherwise-

All of the folks who did this are still in the field. But it's a long trek.

As others have said, law as a profession is in crisis. Way too many new law school graduates are pumped out each year, far outstripping demand. As a result, the top jobs (and often the only real law jobs) go only to graduates of the top schools. Therefore, competition to get into the top schools is fierce.

Getting in to a school ranked in the top 25 by US News and World Report comes down to a simple formula arrived at by combining your first undergraduate degree gpa with your LSAT score. Charts will show you your odds of acceptance to any school based on those numbers. You can also see that school's employment rate and average salary for graduates. You can thus calculate pretty easily the cost vs benefit of attending. If you can get in to a second tier law school, you may still get some job as a lawyer, but will likely make less. If you can only get in to the bottom 100 schools, I would submit that it doesn't make sense economically for most people to go.

I wanted to go, and did attend first year, and went through all this just to discover that I don't really want to be an attorney, for a lot of the reasons Jallen stated.

Talk yoiu out of it? That is easy--read all the prior posts. They are accurate. Lots of lawyers (supply exceeds demand), pressure, long hours, EXPENSIVE, hard, etc.

But your engineering degree is a huge bonus. If you can do well on your LSAT, had good undergrad grades, and do very well at a top tier law school (top 10 typically), you can write your own ticket starting at about $125,000). If not, you might very well end up at the prosecutor's office for a LOT less.

If you are committed to doing what it takes to perform extremely well, you are set. If you have distractions (e.g., a family), it is a lot harder.

I've been doing it since '94, ended up at a large firm, and worked my tail off for 7 years to make partner.

Happy I did it, but I was able to quit my job, borrow all the money, and not have to worry about paying a mortgage or taking care of kids. Not everyone can be that dedicated, so you have to have the right motivation.

quote:

Originally posted by sasquatch28:
Ok. Don't do it. It is no longer a rarified profession. The law school industry (and trust me, it is a self serving industry) pumps out more supply of new lawyers than there is demand. Wages for new lawyers are nowhere near the the 89k figure above UNLESS you are in the top 5 or 10 percent of your class and you have a strong desire to work 50 or 60 hours per week (so that you can bill in excess of 2000 hours per year) doing insurance defense or some other interesting work. Sarcasm intended.

If you feel you must go to law school, don't go into debt to do it. Also make damn sure you are in the top 10% of your class. In the end, you will realize (unless you get really lucky) that you make a living on other people's unfortunate circumstances or misery. You will also come to realize that a sizable portion of the bar believes that being a zealous advocate for their clients should actually be defined as being an intractable asshole.

I appreciate the learning I received, but if I had to do it again, I would not have gone to law school.

This. I went through law school 10 yrs ago, it cost $60,000 at a private school. I was lucky. Most of my classmates ended up 6 figures in debt. It would cost a minimum $100k today and the income has not increased in that proportion. Unless you have a guaranteed job afterwards, don't do it. Save yourself 3 years of your life and pay a MMA athlete $100,000 to kick your butt and you will come out ahead.

quote:

Originally posted by rekstrom:
As others have said, law as a profession is in crisis. Way too many new law school graduates are pumped out each year, far outstripping demand. As a result, the top jobs (and often the only real law jobs) go only to graduates of the top schools. Therefore, competition to get into the top schools is fierce.

Getting in to a school ranked in the top 25 by US News and World Report comes down to a simple formula arrived at by combining your first undergraduate degree gpa with your LSAT score. Charts will show you your odds of acceptance to any school based on those numbers. You can also see that school's employment rate and average salary for graduates. You can thus calculate pretty easily the cost vs benefit of attending. If you can get in to a second tier law school, you may still get some job as a lawyer, but will likely make less. If you can only get in to the bottom 100 schools, I would submit that it doesn't make sense economically for most people to go.

I wanted to go, and did attend first year, and went through all this just to discover that I don't really want to be an attorney, for a lot of the reasons Jallen stated.

In addition to all of this a ton of the stuff non-trial lawyers are doing is beginning to be replaced by intelligent software. The automation wave coming is going to replace a lot of people besides restaurant workers...

Thanks for all yall's input.

Most of you miss the point when you calculate law school costs X dollars and a job only pays Y dollars, if you can find one.

Some of us want to be lawyers, know what lawyers know, do what lawyers do, not for the money, necessarily. It's not just a job. It's your profession.

I had planned on being a lawyer, but a college instructor seduced me with assurances of big money as a stockbroker. "When you get out of the Navy, give me a call. You can be making $25,000 a year [big bucks back then] before you would graduate from law school." A good job for a new grad paid $6-700/mo and a new Mustang was $1800.

I did that and hated it. The brokers wanted me to sell the stuff they were pushing, not necessarily what was good for the account. Screw that! I liked finance but wanted to be on the client's side. I left and went to law school.

I went part time nights, found a job at a title company during the day. This didn't pay that well, but turned out to be one of the luckiest breaks ever, because I was exposed to the intricacies of real estate transactions, conveyancing, documentation, that very few lawyers ever would have. After I passed the bar, I was soon promoted to Regional Counsel, resolving claims, working with the big law firms partners on their clients transactions, showing them how to get them done. That experience, and to an extent those contacts, made all the difference.

Nothing beats the habitual exercise of sound judgment, and that comes from experience and knowing what you are doing. A pro brings an intensity to his responsibilities that mere career job holders can't match.

Our God Daughter has an MBA in Electrical Eng and after 8+ years as an engineer with GM she went to law School. She's now a Patent Attorney and doing great!

I would say, do it!!

I cant tell you what to do. But they say "hell is meeting the person you cohld have become." Most attorneys Ive known practice for life. If it leads to happiness and is not detrimental to you and your family the only thing to lose is regret 40 yeats from.now.

Go to 1:28 on this video. Age is a number.





Link to original video: https://youtu.be/stD9RycSXiU

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Most of you miss the point when you calculate law school costs X dollars and a job only pays Y dollars, if you can find one.

Some of us want to be lawyers, know what lawyers know, do what lawyers do, not for the money, necessarily. It's not just a job. It's your profession... [Shortened]

A lot of wisdom in what Jallen said here. If someone goes to law school, it better be because they want to be a lawyer.

That being said, there are two sides to this and the financial realities that law graduates face today cannot be ignored. Both sides are important.

Law school tuition is going to be $180,000 give or take at the best private schools, not significantly less at the best public schools ($150,000 give or take with some being closer to that $180k mark). That's just for tuition and doesn't cover fees, books, living expenses, etc. A lot of students end up with $200k in debt in addition to whatever debt they're carrying form undergrad.

Finances have to be part of the equation for someone considering law school today.

Like you, I'm glad I went. I have a job that I really like, I get paid well and I was able to do it without debt. I am not anti law school, but the profession will benefit in the long run when/if prospective students take the financial component more seriously.

As has been mentioned, average salary numbers are misleading. Salaries for law school grads are a bimodal curve. About 17% of grads get the jobs in 'Big Law' that, in 2014 (graph below) paid $160K, but this past year moved to $180K. Those 17% are generally the top 60-80% of grads from Top 14 law schools, and SOME of the top 5-40% of grads from Top 15-50ish law schools. A much higher percentage of law school grads earn in the 40-60K range. Very few grads of law schools outside of the Top 50-75 get Big Law jobs.

A 168+ LSAT (Top 4.1% of LSAT takers) with an undergrad GPA of 3.75+ will likely get you into a Top 14 law school. From there, you'll need good first year grades, preferably above median, and ability to interview well, to get a 2L Summer Associate position with a Big Law firm. Most of the Big Law firms in major markets (NY, DC, LA, Chicago) are 100% offer firms, meaning that as long as you don't screw up your 2L Summer Associate position, you'll get an offer to join the firm after graduation.

Yes, as has been mentioned, you can get to higher paying jobs without going to a Top 14, but the odds are certainly not in one's favor, as students in the Top 15-50 law schools tend to gun harder in school because they know their shot at Big Law is dependent on being ranked very highly in their class. The curve in law school is also not your friend, and it only leads to more gunning by classmates.

Then after you graduate, you just need to pass the bar exam in your state, which is no guarantee, but most Top 50 Law School grads are capable of passing it.

Top 14: Top 14 Link

Big Law: Big Law Definition
Introduction to Big Law: Introduction to Big Law Article

Bimodal Curve Article: Class of 2014 Bimodal Salary Curve



Edit: Just noticed that Sig Sauer Kraut already posted a link to the salary distribution.

I've actually found this discussion to be pretty interesting. First of all, what has been said about cost and salary is absolutely true. I work with a lot of lawyers all the time, and I know a lot of them that don't make near what I do. Also, it seems like if you really want to hit the big time, you have to get into one of the big firms in the big cities. Remember, even if you're making $200k a year at some big firm in Manhattan, $200k per year in Manhattan isn't like $200k per year in most all the rest of the country. I would say that the same applies to LA, San Fran, Chicago and many other big cities so those big money numbers aren't as impressive as they appear to be when you factor in cost of living.

Secondly, almost every lawyer that I know is under an immense amount of debt from student loans. Even the ones that are doing well for themselves and are very happy with their career definitely feel the pain of those student loans. I'm not saying that cost vs income potential is the only consideration to make, or even the most important decision to make but it doesn't need consideration. I chose to cut my pay in half to leave the Engineering field to go into law enforcement. I never once regretted it, and now I need my current position I'm even getting to do some engineering work as a fed, and I'm quite happy with this arrangement. I wouldn't exactly consider myself a forensic engineer but I will likely retire and do some forensic engineering for a few years based upon what I've seen out there. I do a lot of fire investigation work, post blast investigations and things of that nature and I've had a number of people give me their cards and tell me to reach out when I'm ready to leave government work. The work can be very lucrative and most expert witnesses I've seen in action earn more, often significantly more, than the attorneys that hire them. This may be something to consider as well if you have an interest in law and the legal system but still want to keep yourself around the engineering world. I've found that in my work, law becomes very much a team effort. I've learned a lot about legal practice and how to conduct trials and hearings from working with the attorneys that I routinely work with, and they've picked up quite a bit of technical acumen in the areas that I'm often called upon to weigh in on. We all kind of work together for the best finished product.

quote:

Originally posted by o'sully:
I have been in the engineering world for 16 years now and I feel its time for a change.

Have you considered being a patent agent? You do not need to go to law school to become a licensed patent agent. You could also combine patent work with consulting in your area of engineering expertise.

You have to really want to be a lawyer for the investment in time/money/stress to be even close to worth it.

Maybe a different type of engineering?
What is it about the present job that you don't like?

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
I've actually found this discussion to be pretty interesting. First of all, what has been said about cost and salary is absolutely true. I work with a lot of lawyers all the time, and I know a lot of them that don't make near what I do. Also, it seems like if you really want to hit the big time, you have to get into one of the big firms in the big cities. Remember, even if you're making $200k a year at some big firm in Manhattan, $200k per year in Manhattan isn't like $200k per year in most all the rest of the country. I would say that the same applies to LA, San Fran, Chicago and many other big cities so those big money numbers aren't as impressive as they appear to be when you factor in cost of living.

True, but salaries ramp up pretty quickly in Big Law. Below is the Lock-step scale (commonly referred to as the Cravath scale, named after the firm 'Cravath', which first announced this higher scale, quickly followed within days by other firms) that is paid by (at latest count) 115+ Big Law firms. Many, if not most, of these firms pay it to Associates in all of their offices. So even Associates in Charlotte, Atlanta, Boston, Houston etc., make the same pay as the Associates in NY, DC, LA, Chicago.

Big Law Lock-step Associate Pay Scale (Cravath Scale):

1st year – $180,000 + $15,000 (pro-rated) Bonus
2nd year – $190,000 + $15,000 Bonus
3rd year – $210,000 + $25,000 Bonus
4th year – $235,000 + $50,000 Bonus
5th year – $260,000 + $65,000 Bonus
6th year – $280,000 + $80,000 Bonus
7th year – $300,000 + $90,000 Bonus
8th year – $315,000 + $100,000 Bonus

A very small percentage of Associates make Partner (and even fewer become Equity Partners), but those who do can expect much higher salary, bonus and origination bonus (bonus for bringing in business) than Associates. Profit Per Partner (PPP), a longstanding law firm industry measure of firm success, was above $2,000,000 annually for 29 firms in 2016, and over $6,000,000 for the most profitable law firm (Wachtell).

If you have a passion to work in a field which requires a law degree, then do it. If not, it isn't worth the time and effort. For me, it was worth it.

I went to law school after several years in the Marine Corps. I wanted to be a prosecutor, and that's what I've done from the moment I finished school. I love the work I do and will retire in a few more years, at which time I plan on teaching (I am also currently an adjunct professor at the local university and teach criminal law and constitutional law part time -- also possible because of my law degree).

I had a high undergrad GPA and a very competitive LSAT score and could have gone to pretty much any school I applied, but instead I took a full ride academic scholarship to a third tier law school. So no student loans or debt for me, and although prosecutors aren't getting rich -- especially right out of law school -- I make a comfortable six figure salary and have a nice pension coming to me after I finish 25 years of public service. It is a much better pension then I would have earned after a career in the Marine Corps.

I agree with many of the criticisms in the above posts about the legal profession and how it is a very saturated market in most states, but we will always need good people to practice law.


Best of luck with your decision.

The market for new lawyers has been soft for a while. It is better than it was in 2009 and 2010, but it is still not great. But if you want to do it and think it is a fit, go for it.

Italia's pay scale is for the very top tier firms only - maybe 30 or 40 big law firms nationwide. I did big law for 6 years. At the time the gap in pay between big law and other jobs wasn't as big as it is now, but it was big. It is a lot of work. You'll be at work for 55 hours a week at least. You learn a lot, but it is work.

There actually ARE lawyer jobs that go unfilled.

My county can't keep the misdemeanor prosecutor billet filled, for example. We've had 3 in the past 3 years.

If you want to work 60+ hours per week and make about $40,000/yr or so feel free to put yourself thru law school and apply.

I'm sure there will be an opening.

Everything's been covered pretty well. I'd only recommend law school if you either (1) get a full ride; (2) go to a T14 school; or (3) go to a top regional program with the ability/intention of being in the top 10% of the class.

I practiced for 6 years before switching to law enforcement. There are plenty of non-private practice options, but you sacrifice salary potential. I never did private practice, so the hours and life balance were much better but the salary capped out pretty quickly.

You guys keep counting the money.

I keep thinking of all the tens of thousands of hours spent mastering a musical instrument, just because it was fun, interesting, rewarding, not because one would be hired as principal clarinetist at the New York Philharmonic, or be the next Harry James or take Keith Richards' place in the Rolling Stones. I have come to know hundreds of very, very good musicians, some of whom turned pro, who play because they love doing so, and many of whom eak out a bare living for their trouble.

A professional does what (s)he does regardless of the money. It sometimes seems like the less you focus on the money, the more you make. You love it, and can't help being the best at it, or at least trying.