I hope this doesn't break any rules regarding content but it's not so much about Corona or the protests. It's more about my experience living overseas during that time.

When Corona virus first took off South Korea was the first "hot spot". My ex said she didn't feel comfortable with the kids visiting, people were scared for me, blah blah blah. Fast forward 5 months and South Korea is by most accounts the model country for dealing with this sort of problem.

People wore masks even before this was a problem to protect from the dust from the Gobi. But furthermore people generally refrain from going out when its not needed, maintain pretty good social distancing. With exception there are few actual restrictions, (bars and nightclubs remain closed) more often you see people adhering to what has been advised by the government and just using plain old common sense. Some can argue that the methods used to perform contact chaining are infringing on privacy but I wont argue with a foreign countries policy as I'm a guest here. When a city of 25 million people can control this virus and and 50 new cases in a weekend is deemed an "outbreak" they are doing something right.

My question is, why and how?

First, Korean people are obviously different by nature. Many Americans might call them sheep, but its not that at all, they are much more willing to put their heads down and do what needs to be done. Is it always fun or beneficial to each individual, nothing ever is, but a LARGE majority tend to work for what is best for the whole. You always have a few assholes, but they are very few and far between.

Second, PC culture isn't a thing. You can have whatever opinion you want of masks. But entering establishments here you WILL wear it. Or they will run your ass out and tell you what a moron you are. Do you have to agree with them? No, but you damn sure gonna hear about it. No one here cares about hurting someone's feelings and its pretty damn refreshing.

Third, people have perspective. And for me only being 37 I have to remind myself of this sometimes. These people, many of which have first hand experience are only 75 years removed from a horrible war and being dirt poor. Literally DIRT poor. So these "hardships" are always put into perspective compared to War and poverty and everything their brethren suffer on a daily basis to the North. Hard to complain about your situation when its that much worse for your Kin folk.

I'm not sure why I'm putting these things out there except to say that while I know America as a whole, and most of its population will only ever know American problems, I'm glad to experience things elsewhere. It's nice to get a new perspective during times like this because everyone can enjoy the good times but its quite apparent that some people (and nations) go batshit crazy when things get tough.

Korea doesn't suffer from the ridiculous, hype it up at all costs, Leftwing Media that's here in the U.S. I've found Koreans too logical to put up with such. Koreans are also more polite, which may be reflected in social media content. All media here in the U.S. suffers from Trump Derangement Syndrome, DTS, which means that the Coronavirus is supposed to be devastating until this November, at which point it will likely disappear from the radar. Truly pathetic.

yes -- Asian culture is a thing

in America - we typically ADMIRE the individual, the guy who goes against the flow, the independent, the lone wolf, the 'self-made man'

we were founded by rebels -- who violently threw off the yoke of oppression

we plunged west taking territory by force from the American Indians

we are an extremely young culture by comparison also

In Asia -- the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. they can also be extremely racist towards other Asians : Japanese vs Korean vs Chinese, etc

Its easy to think : hey, we're all alike. But as you state - when you travel abroad, you realize that as societies go that just isn't true.

And it's also why -- millions of people over the years have left where they WERE to come to the USA.

----------------------------------

America has turned out to be just another country...no great dedication to personal liberties here. Our politicians and citizens are a bunch of terrified clowns barely capable of making decisions.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:
yes -- Asian culture is a thing

in America - we typically ADMIRE the individual, the guy who goes against the flow, the independent, the lone wolf, the 'self-made man'

we were founded by rebels -- who violently threw off the yoke of oppression

we plunged west taking territory by force from the American Indians

we are an extremely young culture by comparison also

In Asia -- the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. they can also be extremely racist towards other Asians : Japanese vs Korean vs Chinese, etc

Its easy to think : hey, we're all alike. But as you state - when you travel abroad, you realize that as societies go that just isn't true.

And it's also why -- millions of people over the years have left where they WERE to come to the USA.

----------------------------------

Oh you're right about that...they HATE each other. much of it is warranted but a good portion is also just because they have been taught to do so. I've often said that people who think racism is bad in American ought to come here. They just don't care. It's the MOST racist country I've ever been to but at the same time I really can't fault em. It's just HOW it is here. That might sound bad but it is what it is.

Secondly I agree that all cultures are different. None is right or wrong, it would be nice to pick only the good parts from some but they ALL have their drawbacks as well.

quote:

When Corona virus first took off South Korea was the first "hot spot".

... and from all I've read South Korea has done a great job of limiting the spread of the virus.

I wish this damn thing would just burn itself out, but it looks like it will be around for awhile.

I can only speak for Japan, and at that, mostly Tokyo and most of the major cities like Kyoto, Hiroshima, Sapporo and the like. But in the almost nine years I was there, I never clapped eyes on ANY kind of alternative dress-code, especially anything that would identify the wearer as coming from an entirely different culture. I never saw a black person, especially around the part of Tokyo in which I worked, who was not American, And around Yokohama, of course, we have Yokusuka - plenty of non-white service personnel to be seen at any time around the the main US Naval Base.

I often stayed in a hotel adjacent to the Saudi embassy, but I never knowingly clapped eyes on an Arab, and over my early days there I actually watched it being built. I remember just one Indian person, who shared a breakfast table with me one day, but he was from Leicester here in UK, home of a large population from the Indian sub-continent.

No moslems, nobody wearing any kind of moslem or Asian dress, like the Agfhan men with their odd pie-shaped headdress, nobody wearing a anything other than a smart Western-style suit.

I asked one of my colleagues about this one day - where are all the moslems?

What moslems? he replied. He had never knowingly seen a moslem unless he was on TV. Never seen a moslem woman in a burkha or an all-enveloping black tent and apart from seeing fellow Japanese dressed in traditional clothing, that was his take on the whole affair. Anyhow, he noted, moslems that you let into your country want to take it over and make you practice their religion, and Japan will not stand for that. In fact, islam is not represented anywhere in Japan - no mosques exist that I know of - perhaps somebody here can correct me on that one.

Basically, Japan will tolerate foreigners in their own embassies, and those who conform to the standard dress codes that we usually associate with the West, mostly US-style, it has to be said. They really do remain pre-Commodore Perry in their mind-set when it comes to foreigners.

If the culture is different, the culture is different. But, despite it being different cultures, the corona virus has not been a political weapon there as it has been here.

From the very beginning, it has been used to control people, not to control a virus. The virus itself still has a 99 percent survival rate (or likely greater).

My little brother is there now, getting ready to rotate back stateside in about a month. He's .mil

He's been working with this and the Koreans since the start of the pandemic.

The Koreans are way ahead of the game! They (and a lot of Asia) took a big hit a few years ago with the H1N1 virus, and learned their lessons. Korea developed a plan after that virus messed them up, they practice it every few years, tweak it to make it better, more streamlined. Now "DaRona" hit, and they were ready for it.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
If the culture is different, the culture is different. But, despite it being different cultures, the corona virus has not been a political weapon there as it has been here.

From the very beginning, it has been used to control people, not to control a virus. The virus itself still has a 99 percent survival rate (or likely greater).

I guess what I'm saying is that you can't differentiate. At least from any other country's perspective. Its all AMERICA. The people, the media, the government, the politics, its all us.

From any other point of view we look dysfunctional AF and quite inept. And while I'm not saying any individual is I can't argue with many foreigner's assessment.

We look bad, and that sucks when you have so much pride in your country and KNOW the good that's there. You can't tell a foreigner, "that's the 10% of shitheads causing trouble". Is it true? probably, but to anyone else its just all America.

It's sad to be honest.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
I wish this damn thing would just burn itself out, but it looks like it will be around for awhile.

And THAT...ain't gonna happen, because the Fake News will NEVER let it "burn itself out". "Never let a good crisis go to waste", remember?? They will stir this pot, just as they have stirred the #BlackLivesMatter and #Racist pots for YEARS now.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
I guess what I'm saying is that you can't differentiate. At least from any other country's perspective. Its all AMERICA. The people, the media, the government, the politics, its all us.

I believe you're trying to compare baby wipes to seedless grapes here...no disrespect intended. But you're comparing our society founded as a Constitutional Republic whose underlying tenet is the very backbone of Freedom to a society who still hinges on monarchs, figureheads, and dictatorships to some degree. If you believe South Korea's "free" society is on par and similar to the United States', I just have to differ on that comparison.

quote:

Originally posted by erj_pilot:

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
I wish this damn thing would just burn itself out, but it looks like it will be around for awhile.

And THAT...ain't gonna happen, because the Fake News will NEVER let it "burn itself out". "Never let a good crisis go to waste", remember?? They will stir this pot, just as they have stirred the #BlackLivesMatter and #Racist pots for YEARS now.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
I guess what I'm saying is that you can't differentiate. At least from any other country's perspective. Its all AMERICA. The people, the media, the government, the politics, its all us.

I believe you're trying to compare baby wipes to seedless grapes here...no disrespect intended. But you're comparing our society founded as a Constitutional Republic whose underlying tenet is the very backbone of Freedom to a society who still hinges on monarchs and dictatorships to some degree. If you believe South Korea's "free" society is on par and similar to the United States', I just have to differ on that comparison.

I've stated that I don't believe any one society to be better or worse for this discussion. I said they all have their shortcomings and good points alike.

Can I ask you to explain how you got me comparing the foundation of each country? I am comparing the response to the current situation. I think in a way you're proving my point here. But I'll let you respond as I may well be wrong.

The part you quoted me on was me saying that to an outsider, no excuse works. As a whole, whether its the media's fault, left, right, government, politics, etc, it doesn't matter. It's all one glaring HOT mess of America.

How does the core principles of a countries founding affect a county's ability to combat this virus?

I take no disrespect, I'm just trying to convey what I've noticed being removed from everything and seeing it from a different perspective. I could very well be wrong, but unfortunately there is no right or wrong with perception. It is what is it. And many people worldwide are viewing the US as inept, and I can't say I blame them, I don't think they are right but I can't blame them for seeing it that way. We can't make excuses.

If South Korea can do it with their "free" society then what is our excuse?

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
Can I ask you to explain how you got me comparing the foundation of each country? I am comparing the response to the current situation. I think in a way you're proving my point here. But I'll let you respond as I may well be wrong.

I guess the statement "they are much more willing to put their heads down and do what needs to be done." strikes me as their society doing things without questioning "why?". That's my basis for the differences in our "foundation". In addition, their custom of wearing masks is well established just from their historical poor air quality and perhaps the ease with which disease is spread.

As Americans, most (not all) are a little reticent to blindly "go with the flow" (my perception of what you're observing about Korea) so quickly without wanting reason, explanation, and validity. As you stated, the cultures are very different. I think Dakor explained my POV somewhat in his post.

quote:

Originally posted by erj_pilot:

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
Can I ask you to explain how you got me comparing the foundation of each country? I am comparing the response to the current situation. I think in a way you're proving my point here. But I'll let you respond as I may well be wrong.

I guess the statement "they are much more willing to put their heads down and do what needs to be done." strikes me as their society doing things without questioning "why?". That's my basis for the differences in our "foundation". In addition, their custom of wearing masks is well established just from their historical poor air quality and perhaps the ease with which disease is spread.

As Americans, most (not all) are a little reticent to blindly "go with the flow" (my perception of what you're observing about Korea) so quickly without wanting reason, explanation, and validity. As you stated, the cultures are very different. I think Dakor explained my POV somewhat in his post.

I completely agree with what you said yes. I even eluded to the masks being common place due to the Mi Say Mun Ji or tiny particles from the Gobi Desert.

And yes, they are more, go with the flow than we are and that can be good and bad. I respect that Americans stand up for 1st and 2nd Amendment rights and so forth.

However in this case, the reason is apparent. The explanation is lacking in both countries a bit, probably a bit better explained here with a bit more straight forward media but still poor on both accounts and the validity I would say comes directly from the results. The pure numbers.

You're right, I agree with everything but unfortunately this is an example of where "doing it the American way" is fucked up as a football bat. There are some cases where we as a society could benefit from STFU and doing what we are told. Unfortunately we can't because someone will take advantage of that.

Again, it's a sad thing to see because I really can't defend us for our poor handling of the situation but I know why it's happened the way it has.

I'm not sure I consider South Korea free. Freedom is still in its infancy stage there. Overly simplistic, but my impression is that Korea is basically run by political and business dynasties (chaebols). If not in face, at least manchurian.

Koreans don't know what freedom really is.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
I'm not sure I consider South Korea free. Freedom is still in its infancy stage there. Overly simplistic, but my impression is that Korea is basically run by political and business dynasties (chaebols). If not in face, at least manchurian.

Koreans don't know what freedom really is.

Yes Chaebols control the country. Political and business dynasties aren't a huge part of American culture?

I was using free in quotations as it was put that way before. However, as far as the world as a whole goes Koreans (the Southern variety anyway) are pretty damn free. It's very close to the top of the list of countries when it comes to freedom of speech, religion, etc.

They have their limitations sure. But it aint far from the US. Hell they can even OWN guns, just gotta keep em at the local PD for storage!

They have corruption, though at this point prolly less than us. They have societal limitations and such but I would consider them a free democracy all accounts.

Do you have specifics as to why you wouldn't consider them free? Aside from Chaebol's having monopolies on most businesses.

"Koreans don't know what freedom really is."

I'd wager a country that was controlled by Imperial Japan less than 80 years ago and subjected to all the applicable tortures has a better perspective of what freedom is than anyone born in the US. I'm not sure what you are basing that statement on.

As you may already know there is quite a bit of societal pressure to follow a certain path in life that usually leads to a high paying job that warrants a lot of respect. In this sense some of the younger generation may feel their freedom is lacking but I don't think that's the type of thing we're talking about here.

I would say they are free to the point the don't break conformist norms as established by the powers that be.

They are a country of conformists. They are not free. This goes back to Josean and earlier eras, not just Imperial rule. Like what was said above, the nail gets the hammer. The nail is often times whole families, not just the individual.

I'd argue conforming is not really freedom. My opinion is that they are allowed various freedoms as a reward for conformance.

They have an illusion of freedom. Koreans that have immigrated here I believe largely have a different perspective of what freedom is than those in Korea.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
I would say they are free to the point the don't break conformist norms as established by the powers that be.

They are a country of conformists. They are not free. This goes back to Josean and earlier eras, not just Imperial rule. Like what was said above, the nail gets the hammer. The nail is often times whole families, not just the individual.

I'd argue conforming is not really freedom. My opinion is that they are allowed various freedoms as a reward for conformance.

I can buy your reasoning.

I just see it as different, people aren't WANTING for much here. Is conforming that wrong if it works? Their society conforming has taken them from nothing to one of the largest most thriving economies in 70 years. Unprecedented.

Do they lack any more freedoms just because they accept that conforming is better for the greater good sometimes?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I just use this Corona virus as the best example.

Their conforming produced results while America is a complete clusterfuck with this situation.

At some point you either got to nut up or shut up and america aint doing either.

For all the perceived lack of freedoms here we can go out and do whatever we want for the most part as long as you use common sense and abide by some simple rules. Been that way for a while now. Would you have conformed the way Koreans did in the beginning if you KNEW it would produce the results it has? I don't mean you personally but Americans in general. I highly doubt they would have and that's a damn shame.

The most restrictive rules for me are coming down from the military so I wont even go there.

My observations about South Korea:

- Very hard working and duty bound.
- Socially it's still the 1960's US before Beatlemania - very manufacturing oriented economy, men work long hours, women stay at home if married, women do not get much higher than entry level company jobs before they marry and have kids.
- See above for the kind of conformity that exists - like post war US 50's/60's - marriage is the norm, unwed motherhood is shunned, divorce is very uncommon, they are quite religious with a lot of Christianity.
- Whatever the boss says, workers cannot contradict or oppose. The big man is the BIG man.
- Nuclear family is paramount.
- Universal military service teaches them appreciation for order and discipline, and use of firearms.
- Very middle class - educated professional people have cars and drive themselves - lower paid people drive scooters - and everyone "buys Korean" and you don't see foreign cars that much. Much fewer displays of obscene wealth (as you will see in China), and not as much visible poverty.
- Very nationalistic - they respect Japan's technological capabilities but look down on the rest of Asia. SE Asians imported for labor are not treated very well (and yes, young Philippine women are trafficked into prostitution under the guise of being hired to be singers or other entertainers, and they are managed by female Korean mama-sans).
- They are a Republic and have elections and even elected a woman to the top job a few years ago. A lot of men were not happy about that.
- They live under constant publicized threat of "nuclear annihilation" by North Korea and go about their business as usual.
- The rebuilding aid from the US after the war put an American stamp on a lot of things. Seeing the green highway sign with white lettering and a red/blue/white shield for I-65 in Busan was amusing, since I travel I-65 in Indiana often.
- Air quality is actually very good compared to China, very little noticeable pollution.
- Unmarried women have to "play" shy and distant and cold around men for a while before any interaction to avoid being shamed for being "easy"
- They drink a LOT.

Some updates about Japan:

- Lots of Nigerians running bars and clubs in Tokyo now, and they are involved in organized crime.

As far as reported cases and deaths in Japan and SK, I don't really believe them either. Saving face is extremely important in Japan, and only a little less so in South Korea. China is quite a bit milder in this regard but it's still an issue. Bad news is not very welcome, and admissions of mistakes are almost unheard of. Tokyo's claimed low crime rate is due to the fact that only solved crimes are reported, unsolved crimes don't count. Think about that.

My guess would be that they are only counting true positive tested cases (not suspected) and only counting deaths that are proven caused by the WuFlu without underlying conditions, not "died with virus" as the US is doing. Other methods to keep any published numbers down are probably being used as well.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
There are some cases where we as a society could benefit from STFU and doing what we are told t

Yeah, no. That is not how freedom works.

Back a few years ago, a guy last name of Henry said something about giving him liberty, or giving him death. The sentiment doesn’t exist in Korea. It doesn’t exist in parts of the US today. But, it does exist here with many in this county. And those with that in mind will not “shut up and do what they are told”. There are a few amendments that ensure that Right.